Wim Hof

[zenwoof]

Is anyone aware of Wim Hof? If so, curious your thoughts... from what I've gathered, Stretch Therapy community in general identifies awareness of the body as a critical point of instruction when performing the exercises, if not the most important instruction. How physical limitations are actually mental in nature - emotions (fear, anger, etc.) manifest as tension in the body, e.g. that what limits you from further ROM can actually be an emotional barrier; when anesthetized one can do the splits. This explains to me anecdotal stories I've heard of how friends suddenly burst out crying uncontrollably during certain poses, like camel pose in Bikram - essentially, that going deeper in the pose elicited an emotional response. The more aware you are of your body, the more "in touch" you are with your emotions.

 

Wim Hof seems to be a master of this then (body awareness), seeing as he can voluntarily control his autonomic nervous system - and be able to reproduce these abilities in others, using his method. Is this type of body awareness the same or similar to the one Stretch Therapy (or, at least Kit & Dave) wishes to cultivate in their practice and teachings? Or are they completely different concepts, and one doesn't necessarily transfer to the other? In other words, has he really learned to 'control' his internal organs (i.e. proprioception), or has he just learned how to fully 'surrender' to the moment when it comes (i.e. relax)? Are these both the same thing?

 

I recall him in interviews saying, essentially, that his method is the "western" way to quickly achieve what meditators and (kundolini) yogis have spent years trying to cultivate.

[[DW]]

Yes, a number of us are aware of his work.  Craig is even strongly considering doing it at some stage in the next year or two (I believe). 

 

Is this type of body awareness the same or similar to the one Stretch Therapy (or, at least Kit & Dave) wishes to cultivate in their practice and teachings? There are many types, IMO.  He possess high level abilities down certain pathways.  I believe there are many, many types of body awareness (what I call sensation) and the methods in training them legion.  You pick the ones you want to develop.  Some may confer an increase in 'general' bodily awareness greater than others (if there is such a thing)..  Control and Surrender are very different, IMHO.  The other questions I have some ideas about, but I do not want to discuss. 

[[DW]]

..best not to speculate about these things too much.  Better to dive right in (the freezing cold water, in this instance).  Then you'll know the answers to your questions directly. 

[Ryan Grzech]

He interests me quite a bit as well. My take on his work, after reading whatever I could find and watching his interviews/methods, was that it was not a new "western" way. It is just his attempt at reaching a new audience that might not think they could be successful in improving their quality of life using regular meditation methods -- even though they probably should be. I think he wants to start as many people as he can on the same journey as him. He just constantly downplays his feats in favour of trying to make them apply to anyone rather than daredevils looking to run in the arctic, even though it took him years and years to get to where he is as well. 

[Jim Pickles]

I've just come across his work. I've downloaded one of his articles that has a lot of scientific references attached. When I've read them, I'll report back. It seems that much of what he has done has been measured scientifically, so we can see the basis of it, and whether it is worth us ordinary mortals trying to train ourselves in his methods.

[tigreton]

I am currently in week number 9 of the 10 week course.

Cold showers are normal now.

[Jim Pickles]

tigreton - are you getting a benefit?

 

In Victorian times, some people used to take a cold bath every morning. Maybe they had it right. Baths of course cool the body much more than showers (where I live though, hot water comes out of both taps).

[tigreton]

Well... I think it is too early to tell.

My life hasn't changed yet. But I also did not cry after Ido Portals Movement-X... :-)

The only benefit that is currently evident for me, is that the fear of cold is gone.

[LG_Recomp]

Is the 10 week course just what you can get from his articles (30 power breaths, hold without air, hold with air, repeat and take a cold shower)? Or are there different things that are necessary to get similar results?

[tigreton]

It is more. It has a breathing component (pretty much like his articles with come additions in the last weeks), some yoga posture, cold showers/cold exposure and meditation.

[LG_Recomp]

How much of a daily time investment is it?

[Craig]

Well... I think it is too early to tell.

My life hasn't changed yet. But I also did not cry after Ido Portals Movement-X... :-)

The only benefit that is currently evident for me, is that the fear of cold is gone.

 

I feel like you downplayed a very massive and important benefit, one of the things that Wim Hof seems he is particularly trying to do.  You removed your fear!  This is a removal of inhibition in your system, and it is very important. It's basically exactly what lots of the ST and PA materials are striving for, removal of inhibition.   In the case of ST they approach this through physical inhibition of the tissue structures, but these inhibitions exist in the mental space as well.  A person free of inhibition is a very interesting person indeed! I remember a clip from a documentary on Wim Hof where he had people doing breathing exercises and there was all sorts of yelling and shouting and anger and ecstatic laughter and crying, and he was basically saying something like "we are removing the layers of conditioning, getting deep into the core of the being".  I have seen almost identical scenarios (all the emotions coming out) during ST workshops and classes.

 

Your removal of your fear of cold is very important.  There are more layers to investigate to completely remove the inhibitions. Some things you can try:

• See if you can remove the physical inhibitions.  This means "no ripples" in the breath when you first make contact with the cold. If you're doing this in the shower, do nice long relaxed breathing and see if you can maintain it without the breath being disturbed at all when the cold comes on.
• See if you can remove the deeper mental inhibitions.  Try and do the same as the breath (no ripples) but now with the mind.   The cold comes on, and there is no disturbance to your mental patterns at all.  This one is tricky
• If you have access to a cold body of water, see if you can enter the water with no disturbances to the breath or mental state.  This means walking in at a pleasantly casual rate - too fast is no good, its the panicked state that you're trying to remove, too slow is a state of fear and apprehension about your task. Just walk into the water in the same way that you would walk into a room!

 

On a side note, I was stretching with DW on the weekend and something similar to this was happening during a deep hip flexor stretch.  DW's wife entered the room, didn't even blink twice, said hello as she walked past.  Two adults tangled in some bizarre stretch making completely strange sounds like dying giraffes was a completely normal thing for her to see.  it made me laugh!

[[DW]]

Auspicious Flying Consorts (wives) ftw!

[tigreton]

Time investment: between 30 min and 1 hr.

 

I also credit the method for not getting sick, while everybody was vomiting around me (wife and kids), but I am very cautious to state things like that without further testing/experience.

 

If you read the Win Hof Facebook group it is: "can it cure this? can it cure that?"...

Everybody must try it one its own...

 

Personally I am happy with my progress, but I had a lot of experience with breathing exercises (freediving, pranayama, etc.) and just wanted to try something else.

[Hamolinadir]

I watched the Wim Hof documentary.  He seems like an interesting guy and I find his story to be inspiring as he developed his abilities in response to his grief from the death of his wife.  Placed in his position many people would give up on life (and who could blame them?). 

 

However, I disagree with Dave’s advice that it’s “..best not to speculate about these things too much.  Better to dive right in…”  as well as the encouragement OP received in response to undertaking the training, from both a theoretical and experiential standpoint. 

 

Theoretically speaking, as someone who more or less subscribes Gurdjieff’s ideas, some of his comments on breathing exercises are enough to give me pause:

 

“The disorganization of the function of the machine through breathing exercises is almost inevitable when people try to do ‘breathing exercises’ from books by themselves without proper instruction.  Many people used to come to me in Moscow who had completely disorganized right functioning of their machines by so-called ‘yogi breathing’ which they had learned from books.  Books which recommend such exercises represent a great danger…The difficulty is in knowing what movements and what postures will call forth certain kinds of breathing in what kind of people.” (In Search of the Miraculous p387-8)

 

Now just because Gurdjieff, or anyone else, makes such pronouncements doesn’t of course oblige anyone to consider much less follow them; I myself am for sure a horrible follower of most anything, and perhaps we sometimes need to burn our fingers.  

 

Experientially speaking, many years ago I undertook a program designed to help eliminate tension which partially involved holding the breath and inducing near hyper-ventilation.  While I received some beneficial feelings at first, the longer I went on with it I found that I had irregularities in my breathing during periods when I wasn’t doing the exercises – such as suddenly taking a quick breath without my conscious volition.  It was later that I came upon Gurdjieff’s warnings about ready-made breathing exercises and I’m grateful that I didn’t carry out the experiment further.  In my opinion, it’s well and good to pay attention to the breath and to deepen the breath; but monkeying around with holding the breath for counts and such may be dangerous.

 

One of the things that suggest to me that Stretch Therapy is well thought out is that, from what I’ve gathered, it appears to have a built-in recognition of the uniqueness of individuals undertaking it, as opposed to a one size fits all approach.  What I think happened with Wim Hof is that he came upon an effective method for him, either by chance or perhaps through force of will and experimentation.  In my opinion, it’s likely a mistake to expect that other types of people should get the same results if they follow the same formula.

 

Since the only way to find out about for sure about the effects of breathing exercises is to experiment with them for oneself and see what happens, it becomes a matter of a cost/benefit calculation.  But if these experiments are highly individual, we can’t know in advance what the costs and benefits may be.  It might then be a prudent start to consider that there might be unforeseen costs as well as benefits.

 

It has occurred to me that it may be possible that I had a negative experience, reacted like a frightened rabbit and then found theoretical confirmation to rationalize my paranoia, thus creating an "inhibition in [my] system."  So, for others who have undertaken to experiment with ‘yogic breathing,’ what results did you obtain?

[MT Nordic]

I'm fascinated by Wim Hof, and do believe cold exposure is very important for us.  I'm a big believer in not living in a stable 68 degrees year round, but adapting your body to the cold in the winter and the heat in the summer.  Outside of your comfort zone is where you will get the most benefits.  The interesting thing about cold stress, vs other types of stress, is that cold stress does not raise your cortisol levels.  So it's a hormetic response, without the downside, so it can improve your recovery and help you regulate your stress hormones.  Developing brown fat so you can improve your metabolism is another side benefit.  

 

However, I think Wim makes his method a little too kooky for the ordinary person to be drawn to.  The breathing...great.  The messages of love and devotion to humankind...awesome.  The screaming, chanting, cult-like activity witnessed in the Vice documentary...disturbing.  Frankly, I think the reason his method works is because he forces you out of your comfort zone and makes you get in the cold. It's amazing how fast the human body adapts to cold.  Try it.  Take a cold shower or jump in a creek in November (northern hemisphere!).  It's cold!  Do it daily for a few days, not so bad.  I've been swimming in mountain lakes and creeks since i was a teenager and it is not hard. It's purely mental.  you are as cold as you think you are.  Hyperventilating until you are dizzy, and then holding your breath (because you got rid of all your CO2), does not prove anything.  Deep breathing and "proper" breathing is vital and very poorly done by most people, but it is not the magic of Tummo meditation (which Wim Hof's method is based off of). So I"m glad he's raising the benefits of it, but I think until he makes it less cult like, it will not spread as far and wide as it should.  

 

Humbly submitted, with understanding that not all will be pleased with my opinions, which I fully respect.  Tigreton, thank you for sharing your experiences as well.

[[DW]]

I stand corrected. Hamolinadir, great first post. Thank you. I found out in more detail last week about the breath work involved from a friend, so quite possibly would have altered my original statement some. Besides a few one off tests, I do not personally train (or teach) breath ratio manipulation work ala pranayama (though I have friends who do who are happy with the results).  I agree with the need to individualization of training programming (especially in regards to types) and use this in other ways..  My original advice of the flavor of 'dive right in' is largely directed at certain types; the ones who over-analyse conceptually and never practice, and/or endlessly ask questions (on forums and in other medium) the answers to which are already easily found in other sources or the answers to which they have already been given but do not follow.  Being of one of these patterns myself, and having found what I was looking for elsewhere, I now only frequent this forum (having found forums not of use passed a certain stage) - and largely as a service to Kit who functioned as a Teacher in my life at one stage and who I feel a large degree of gratitude towards. 

[tigreton]

Personally I have tried a couple of breathing techniques and systems (ashtanga yoga with explicit focus on ujayi breathing and using the breath to time the postures, pranyama, etc.)

Feldenkrais also has good lections in his books to help to feel the diaphragm and the lungs.

I also did some freediving (with PFI / recommended) and within 2 days of training I could hold my breath for 5:45.

If you look at nearly any activity, there is some advice on breathing. Running, kettlebells, yoga, swimming, stretching,... Nearly every book on the subject tells you how to breathe.

Is it dangerous? I don't know, but honestly I believe that the body is able to overcome our pity attempts to control it...

 

For me none of the systems has been the golden bullet (and solution for everything in your life as the authors make you believe), but everyone has given me something. I also haven"t had any negative experiences (so far).

 

For the Wim Hof method:

I have completed the course and can step into a could shower with minor "ripples" in breathing. The exercises can really wake me up and give me energy> In addition you get a nice (oxygen?) high from time to time...

 

In my opinion the chanting is more of a tribe building exercise in the workshops than anything else. It really doesn"t seem to be integral to the method and Wim Hof seems to be genuinely interested in testing the method scientifically.

 

<Rant>

One thing that I have found in most of those methods is that their founders get a lot of positive feedback ("saved my life", "never got sick again",...) and not enough critical feedback. Most of those successes are probably "regression to the mean" (Kahnemann talks extensively about that in "Thinking fast and slow") Simply said: people, where the methods don't work, just carry on with their lives. Everybody who gets better (may it be with or without the method) chime in to praise.

 

In the end the founders firmly believe that their work is live-changing (listen to the latest Ido Portal interview on London Real... people cry, write to him to tell him he saved their lives - what about the others...?). Everyone whose live is not changed and speaks up, is not committed enough or doesn't put the hours in or did it wrong.

(Btw I really like what Ido is doing, but he is falling into the same trap...)

 

This is how sects are born. Another good book on that is "Mistakes were made, but not by me" (it also has a nice chapter on how sect members act, when they are proven to be wrong. Most get even more involved and more sure of their cause).

 

And this is why I like this forum. People seem to be genuinely interested in testing other methods, even if it means that they were wrong! Espectacular...

</Rant>

[Kit_L]

Being surrounded by people like DW and Miss Olivia keeps me grounded; not much chance of any cults forming here! And (I speak for all of us involved in our work) we are too curious to sit back and think that we know all there is to know on any subject. 

 

Re. cold: as written about elsewhere, I have been taking cold showers each time I have a shower, without exception, since preparing for an extended trip to a monastery three years ago where, I had been told, my kuti had the coldest water of all of them... turned out this was unnecessary, as a hot water system was fitted literally the day I arrived! But I have stuck with the habit, for many reasons.

 

One is that all my life I have hated the feeling of cold water on my body; this shower experience has changed my relationship to cold water forever. I stand under it (wherever I am in the world) until the water feels neutral. This takes 2–3 minutes. I try to stay completely relaxed (so watching for flickers of aversion in the mind, and relaxed breathing).

 

@ JimP: I believe the Victorian practice was intended to help sublimate sexual desire—funny really, as cold water on the testicles stimulates testosterone production; Steve Maxwell endorses this practise. Ah, those Victorians! And your point re. still water in contact with the body (rather than moving water) is accurate (but in the case of very hot water, which I had extensive experience of when I lived in Japan) this is not as true—still hot water is more tolerable, and the water immediately surrounding you gets a bit less hot. As soon as you move, you feel the truth of this!

 

@ MH: I feel your identification of removal of fear as being a significant goal is extremely important; for me it was not fear (which has one flavour) but aversion, which has another.

 

@ DW: thank you for that clarification, and I very much appreciate your contributions here.

[Hamolinadir]

Thanks Dave. I was a bit baffled by your first response to the topic since I know that we are both influenced by the esteemed Mr. G. Your clarification makes sense though - I also tend to fall into the trap of over analysis sometimes. I hope I didn't come across as overly critical as I enjoy reading what you write. I also think that in terms of costs and benefits of breathing exercises as well as jumping into things in general your idea of death coaching is apropos and useful.

Tigreton, I'm glad that you've had positive experiences with the Wim Hof method, and thanks for telling a bit about the other breathing experiments you've undertaken. Of course there's lots of advice for breathing for various activities; many of them are probably fine. When I had the experience of unintended gasping from the experiment I tried I believe that it was because the repetition of artificial breathing mechanics had interfered with my natural breathing. So that it's a matter of time, the type of breathing, the type of person, etc. A complicated subject, about which I was mostly attempting to argue for awareness and caution.