Fasting and working out

[Rafael]

TL;DR: I, a monk-to-be, sit really badly for meditation and need strengthening and stretching exercises; However, I eat only once a day and I'm very interested in fasting. Is it possible to improve even throughout some periods of fasting?

Hello. My name is Rafael, and currently I'm living in a Thai forest Buddhist monastery. Soon I'll became a novice (in 2 weeks from now), and then I'll lose access to the internet. In order to be more flexible,mainly for sitting in the ground, I've been studying and experimenting Kit's material, and the results until then have been very good -- in sharp contrast to every other approach that I've ever tried.

I'm quite skinny (1.84m, 60kg), have a case of scoliosis, and can't cross my legs sitting in the ground, unless if I really bend my spine. As seen in other threads and in Kit books and videos, working on piriformis really helps.

So I generally dedicate myself to stretching routines along with some bodyweight conditioning, as far as the Discipline allows (pushups, squats, pullups etc.)

Thing is: along the monkhood training, I'll probably eat very little. I already eat once a day, and I'm interested in fasting. I think I should experiment with fasting for at least the first years of training, giving up food on periods ranging from 2 to 10 days or more. However, I need to keep exercising, in order to sit better and longer.

Are these absolutely conflicting goals? What do you all think?

[Tones]

http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com/2013/06/jackkruse/

This one should give you the best answers:
http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com/2014/02/combining-fasting-and-exercise/

http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com/2015/07/322-the-truth-about-starvation-mode-does-ketosis-work-for-crossfit-measuring-hrv-during-exercise/

If you want more resource check out http://www.jackkruse.com Dr Kruse has protocols as well.

Also, look into how the sumos train.

I do regular fast, train fasted (not all the time, about twice a week. But I do eat later in the day), I have competed (muay thai) fasted as well. The benefit is there if you're willing to undergo the period (years) it takes to adapt (body has to build a decent amount of mitochondria). Personally until my body got used to it, any time my blood pressure would shoot up, I'd feel ill.

You also have to have some proteins and electrolytes/minerals to starve off neural fatigue (brain fog). Some carbs are needed to regulate hormones, some fats as well, and blah blah blah they'll go over all this in the resources. Also, be sure to drink water just because the habit of eating provides water (either you'll have something to wash it down or there will be water in the food).

I'd go having fasted training and long fasts separate at first because it does take some time (years) to get used to being fasted.

I'd also eat a lot when I eat.

You are 1.84m, 60kg. No need to make yourself suffer. A lot of people have undergone this before, you can learn from them.

The detox and mental benefit for the long run, you're better off looking at ketogenic diets. That said, 99% of the ketogenic diet advice on the net is for officeworkers who drive to work and watch TV at home.

[Frederik]

Much of what Tones writes above is sound advice, I do not know about and have not read through the cited source(s).

 

However,  I am alot more resistant when the name Jack Kruse pops up. From what I have come across he seems to be somewhat wonky and "out there", at least that been my experience when I came across his stuff years ago. I would take any of his statements with a grain of salt. Definitely not someone I would base my whole knowledge base around.

 

It is entirely possible to do exercise in a fasted state, and have gains, and from a evolutionary or physiological stand point it is what you would expect. Even very muscular people have great success with various fasting regimes: I am thinking especially of Berkhans protocol, which is the place I would start if trying to combine strength training, hypertrophy and fasting. But, there would be a re-feed after the fasting is over! With your bodyweight I would favor maintaining (or gaining!)  bodyweight, so do what you can with that restriction and ease into it. With the training that you do consider doing lower volume and more intense work.

 

/FB

[[DW]]

..you can always supplement those pull-ups with pressing your copy of 'The Connected Discourses of The Buddha: a translation of Samyutta Nikaya' by Bhikku Bodhi, overhead.

Is the fasting required and is this a personal interest only?

[Tones]

However,  I am alot more resistant when the name Jack Kruse pops up. From what I have come across he seems to be somewhat wonky and "out there", at least that been my experience when I came across his stuff years ago. I would take any of his statements with a grain of salt. Definitely not someone I would base my whole knowledge base around.

By definition anything progressive is gonna be out there and wonko, until the science does it's thing and catches up. Then it's called science. Classic world is flat vs round. He does say things like we carry memory in our cells (DNA) in us from when we were living in the sky (start of the Cenozoic Era, after the meteorite). That Barry guy comes from a completely different background which is much more applicable for regular Joe Blow.

[Nathan]

However,  I am alot more resistant when the name Jack Kruse pops up. From what I have come across he seems to be somewhat wonky and "out there"...

 

...I am thinking especially of Berkhans protocol, which is the place I would start if trying to combine strength training, hypertrophy and fasting. But, there would be a re-feed after the fasting is over!

 

Ben Greenfield also tends to veer toward the wonky side of things. (And yes, progressive can often begin as wonky, but that doesn't mean everything wonky is progressive and just waiting for science to catch up.)

 

I agree that the Leangains protocol is something to look into. However, there is no "definitive" resource like a book that can be referenced, and it is based on daily intermittent fasting and would thus offer little insight into longer fasts. (On a personal note, I have followed the LG protocol for quite a while previously and did the majority of my workouts fasted with no problem.) I think perhaps a more helpful resource would be Brad Pilon's book Eat Stop Eat. He really digs into the science of fasting and offers a lot of interesting insight. The ESE basic protocol incorporates 1-2 24 hour fasts each week, which is longer than the LG 18 hour fast, but the book also covers some info regarding longer fasts as well. Heavy resistance training is also a key facet to the ESE concept, and the book does touch on it.

[Frederik]

Agree with Nathan on these points. And definitely learn how to use the fasting and see how your body responds.

 

 (And yes, progressive can often begin as wonky, but that doesn't mean everything wonky is progressive and just waiting for science to catch up.)

 

Yes. Exactly, and let us not diverge into a discussion of the broad term "science", and the scientific method of inquiry in particular. It would be too much of a tangent.

[Emmet Louis]

Sorry to digress: ESE is an example of what is mentioned in this article re Kiefer

 

 http://vitals.lifehacker.com/butter-in-your-coffee-and-other-cons-stories-from-a-fi-1724843201

The Leangains protocol is well documented and is much more than intermittent fasting, In fact I'd say it would be just as successful with out the fast.

Features of LG:

• 16 hours fast
• Calorie cycling regardless if cutting, recomping or bulking
• Macronutrient cycling
• Fasted training
• Supplement timing
• Progressive resistance training
• Timed refeeds

Martin Berkhans blog has all the info for it

http://www.leangains.com/

 

 

[Nathan]

Are you sure you're not mixing ESE up with something else? ESE is basically: eat sensibly, fast for 24 hours 1-2 times per week (generally such that you're always eating at least one meal per day), engage in heavy resistance training (fasted or not), and don't stress about the details. It's pretty much a simplified LG for normal people. LG adds the calorie/macro cycling and gives a daily eating window, but fasted training is still optional (more of an afterthought). As far as I know, Brad is pretty well respected and he puts out good info - a far cry from Kiefer.

 

Edit: Now Ori's Warrior Diet, on the other hand... that's Kiefer territory.

[AndeL]

If I were your size/weight, I would be thinking about how you can eat more & definitely not less. IMHO you have conflicting goals if you want to do mobility and bodyweight training on very little food and actually get good gains, in addition to monk life. Training/work requires intake of more food. Why complicate your life? Eat more within the structure of your life and start moving better to feel & sit better. This will lead to bigger contemplation gains than fasting, I imagine, however of course I could be completely wrong about this. 

[Rafael]

Thank you, guys. Listened to Ben's podcast, checked LG's protocol, read ESE (it really looks sound), took note of all your advice. Now, I presume, it's only a matter of practicing, tinkering and see what happens.

AndrewL: yeah, I've always been on the you-should-eat-more team. However, my interest in physical exercise appeared only recently, so no matter how much I ate, with sedentary habits (and genetics), I kept myself skinny. Soon after I started to really like working out, I discovered Buddhism and couldn't make any other decision but to ordain. Now I live under food constraints, and bulking is not really a monkish goal, but, as you said, I won't complicate my life. Sitting first, and then I should focus on keep my bowl light.

Dave: longer periods of fasting are not required at all; if you really come to think of it, what all these protocols call "fasting" is just our daily diet, here. But the ultimate goal of Buddhist monks has so much to do with the way we relate to food that fasting becomes a task quite suitable for the lifestyle. I fastened only once before, for some days, and the results were really interesting. Not only on purely mental terms, but, for instance, on how food was perceived. When I came back to eating, I felt like I could note more sharply how much energy food could give me. Up to some amount, I felt "high" on food, and, like a drug, the high got diminishing gains with each meal more. Like, if I was careful, I could extract the optimum amount of energy from food; not much, not less. Very interesting.

Besides, all the great masters report some linkage between their results and the way they controlled their senses.

[[DW]]

Good luck with it all, Rafael. Onward to the other shore of nibbāna.

[Kit_L]

Rafael, late to the party, but a couple of notes: there are plenty of plump monks, in my experience or, at least, there are quite a few! At your height, though, being serious, your lack of muscle weight is very likely to be one of the causes of your tightness—I have seen this often before (weakness manifesting as protective tension). Now, as a newly ordained monk, weight training is not in your immediate future (and for the rest of the readers, Theravada generally does not believe in the virtues of exercise, beyond walking meditation). So, concentrating on getting looser so you can sit comfortably is, IMHO, the way to go.

 

Re. fasting: at your body weight, I would not recommend prolonged fasting; a day or two at most (and mostly to feel your aversions and desires, not any 'health' effects). The fact that you are eating only once a day means that you are following Martin's LG protocol already (and this is independent to the carb/protein/fat ratio of the food you are eating).

 

To the far shore!

[chrisgaray87]

...Now, as a newly ordained monk, weight training is not in your immediate future...

 

Ha! This made me chuckle.

[isenriver]

I fastened only once before, for some days, and the results were really interesting. Not only on purely mental terms, but, for instance, on how food was perceived. When I came back to eating, I felt like I could note more sharply how much energy food could give me. Up to some amount, I felt "high" on food, and, like a drug, the high got diminishing gains with each meal more. Like, if I was careful, I could extract the optimum amount of energy from food; not much, not less. Very interesting.

Besides, all the great masters report some linkage between their results and the way they controlled their senses.

 

I believe that would be the effects of the hunger hormone Ghrelin. They extol the virtues of fasting/fat adaptation quite a lot in the primal/paleo/ancestral health community. I've found that Mark Sisson always writes sensibly and comprehensively about the topic see here. Not that I think you would being a monk and all but don't get too religious about it, I've worked myself into a state of adrenal fatigue combining intense exercise and long fasts .     

[Rafael]

So, concentrating on getting looser so you can sit comfortably is, IMHO, the way to go.

The fact that you are eating only once a day means that you are following Martin's LG protocol already (and this is independent to the carb/protein/fat ratio of the food you are eating).

To the far shore!

Agreed with everything you said. To the far shore!

[Rafael]

Hello, friends. I'm back to Brazil, visiting my parents, so I have access to Internet for the time being. Now I'm a monk, as planned.

You all were on the spot, on many spots. I was probably just too excited, eager to get myself prepared, and to experiment everything at once. So I did. In the beginning, as a novice, I tried some fasting, sometimes for many days. And a lot of other stuff. It has its interesting aspects, but it's not something to be done regularly, unless if you're very wise with it. We new fish, we're just not. And the most inspiring monks that I've met, they don't do it (but their toilets are very clean etc.).

I'm here to express my thanks. S&F is helping me a lot. I have a lot of respect for the work done here.