Good exercises for tiring the hamstrings?

[Jim Pickles]

I find a good way to stretch muscles like the hamstrings is to get them as tired as possible first. When they feel like jelly, they go into a stretch well and dont pull back as hard.

For this, in my classes, we have been doing squats. For the younger age group (20s), in the splits class, we do many repeated squats in sets of 20. If any had knee problems they would hold the squat for the same length of time, though I personally do not like held squats as much (it doesnt feel as if its doing so much good, somehow).

In my classes for older people (40-70s), where more have knee or other problems, we do a single 30 sec held squat. Those who don't like this might just do a wall sit.

Squats and in particular repeated squats have the problem that a poor pattern of movement might damage the knee - I watch for this, but even so it may happen to some extent anyway. It would be nice to avoid them for this reason, if possible.

A couple of days ago a member of the older class said he never got much out of the held squat - it wasnt working his hamstrings much (or at all). It was instead working his quads hard. This is in spite of my instructions to keep as much weight as possible over the heels. In experimenting with variations on myself, it seems the quads always come in hard whatever one does, and the hamstrings are often not contracting particularly hard. Someone who has a certain ingrained pattern of body movement may I guess not use the hamstrings much at all, in spite of trying to.

The class member suggested why not do leg curls instead (as taught by his physio). Stand on one leg, and repeatedly bend the other knee, lifting the heel as high as possible towards the calf. Though this indeed works the hamstrings, in me it does not work them particulary hard, because you are not lifting the body weight (just the weight of the ankle and foot), I also find that the muscle starts to feel crampy quite quickly (presumably because it is being worked in a contracted position) and this happens before the muscle gets very tired.

I wonder, does anyone have any good suggestion for an exercise to fatigue the hamstrings quickly and effectively, that can be done in a class setting without equipment, and would be suitable for an older age group?

Many thanks, Jim.

[Craig]

Single Leg Good Mornings:

Stand on one leg, lock it straight, dont let the knee bend. Hinge forward at the hips as far as you can without bending the back at all (back must remain straight or even slightly arched/extended). Press back up to standing using the cue of 'hooking the heel into the ground and dragging it back'. Repeat x 10 reps with a 10-30s hold at the bottom position on the last rep.

The same exercise can be repeated with a slightly bent knee to hit the upper hamstring and glutes, although this will require keen attention to make sure the degree of bend doesnt shift during the exercise.

Both these drills will fix your students issue of quad dominant pattern as well, which will fix many other problems besides this one.

[Jim Pickles]

Craig - many thanks for your suggestion.

I tried it, and looked at it on Youtube too because I want sure what the other leg did - in fact some peple seem to hold it bent and just off the ground, others let it swing out behind as a counterbalance (which I guess reduces the force on the hamstring too). My guess is that it is going to be too acrobatic for my older class members many of whom are working round issues of various sorts.

It seems to me that it has a major stability and core component (as is confirmed in the videos), and would be valuable for that. But for my students concentrating on that means that they would not get the workout of the hamstrings as intended - they would never be able to do enough. Of course, our exercises are all unweighted. I'm also unhappy about goodmornings in general with relatively unpracticed people as in my class, because I can see that they might be too challenging for the spine unless people already have a very good and strong core.

So thanks, but I dont think this will work for this group unfortunately - though we might try occasional ones as a stability exercise.

But I need to find out more about the quad dominant pattern and how the correct it. I have searched, and it all looks very confusing - partly because of the differing terminologies, but mainly because all the discussions seem to be related to weightlifting, rather than to normal usage - do you have any resources to suggest?

Many thanks, Jim.

[Emmet Louis]

Jim,

Try stride stance good mornings similiar to a single leg good morning but the feet remain flat on the ground. Feet are separated bout 0.5 - 1.5 foot lengths.

[[DW]]

I've always been a fan of using the

(not the best video, too fast on the way up) either with slow reps, eccentric only reps and/or isometric holds. IF proceeding too slowly, do with one leg . Emmet and Craig's suggestions sounds grand, too.

[Craig]

Hi Jim,

There are a group called foundations that specifically address the issue of the quad dominant pattern, they have a Ted talk I'll find for you and post here when I get home.

Let me know if you find something that works!

[Jim Pickles]

Well thank you so much for those comments which have been very stimulating. They led me to this exercise (The Founder) (

) which not only activates the posterior chain effectively but I think can be adapted to my older and relatively more crotchety groups. If one of the more vocal members has anterior chain dominance, I think it is quite likely that some others do too, but because of the unathletic way they move, we never realise. They will all benefit from this and related exercises, adapted if necessary.

I found a TED talk at

- is this the one you mean, Craig?

I'd also appreciate Kit's general comments when he has come back to earth after being overseas, clean-shaven or bearded.

So thank you. I think this little discussion has revolutionised how I will be teaching.

Jim.

[Craig]

That's the one!

[Matthieu Jeandel]

Hello all

From Jim

I find a good way to stretch muscles like the hamstrings is to get them as tired as possible first. When they feel like jelly, they go into a stretch well and dont pull back as hard.

Does your method is kind of "pre-exhaustion stretching"? I reed a presentation, with pre-exhaustion stretching, where the exercices were quite complicated to install, does this manner (1 exercice to tired 1 exercice of stretching but different of the first) are interesting?

Does anyone of you test this method and have some result to communicate?

It seems Kit will record some videos about this method in the futur.

Thank you

Matt.

[Jim Pickles]

It is just making them tired. It is different from the pre-exhaustion that was developed earlier, which uses very heavy weights so that the muscle fails after just a few reps. I dont use that any more as its too fiddly and time-consuming to set up.

[Matthieu Jeandel]

Ok but what you (every one here) thing about using one exercice of pre exhaustion (as in some method of musculation) : Stiff leg good morning by example for hamstring and after that practicing stretching?

Do you thing it could be interesting?

Thank you

Matt.

[SwissDanny]

Very interesting thread, I am permanently looking too "wake up" and activate my posterior chain.

I agree it is too easy to squat with a front dominant pattern, especially if you have say hip or ankle mobility limitations. I can do deep body weight squats with my weight on my heels forever and still only feel it in my quads.

On the other hand a proper hinge is much harder to do without engaging the posterior chain, and "the founder" certainly does the trick nicely.

In the gym I would probably use good mornings, kettlebell swings, arch body hold or high box step downs as "go to" posterior chain activations prior to squatting or deadlifting.

[Kit_L]

I just love the way someone will discover an ancient exercises (like the good mornings described above) and then rename and present as their own. Weighted versions of this exercises have been staples in Olympic lifting gyms forever; sometimes they are called Bulgarian DL when done with the Oly bar (held at arms length just in front of the thighs, and hinging at the hips only; the weighted good mornings have the bar behind the neck). Good mornings and bent-leg DLs (emphasising the hip hinge) have been using in bodybuilding since forever, explicitly as hamstring, glute, and erector spinae developing exercises.

Anyhow, for Jim, Emmet's suggestion will likely be the most practical for the group he works with. So, little to no knee flexion, and maximum ROM at the hip (like the "founder" shows). This will fry the hamstrings primarily, and there will be little to no quad involvement, as the movement happens around the hips. These are standard "good mornings"; arms can be extended overhead to increase the load.

[Jim Pickles]

Thanks everyone. I've been trying the Founder over the last few days, and its after-effects makes me feel terrific. I've obviously been missing something if it had such an effect, and that something has not been addressed by my normal class exercises (since I do them a lot). So I am going to introduce it to my class asap (i.e. tomorrow). I think it will be within everyone's capability, as they can easily adjust the intensity.

The student with the initial quad-dominance problem will probably be OK with Emmett's stride stance good morning but I am not sure about using it with some of the others, though I'll try it and see how it goes.

Anyway, I'll see if they like it (after setting the ground of course by telling them what issues it addresses, and how wonderful it makes me feel - hardly a controlled scientific experiment, more a sales pitch).

As far as naming goes, at least they didnt try to patent The Founder (as far as I am aware.... it doesnt say patents pending on the video). Not like the yoga company that recently patented a yoga studio set up, and tried to stop other people using the same setup (they withdrew the patent after complaints - there is also the issue that it would not be worth defending financially unless they could tie their opponent in such legal knots that they ended up bankrupt. Karma and all that.)

Hope Kit and Olivia had a good time in Brisbane. Good students?

Jim.

[Olga]

I am new person here so feel free to criticise hard

I don't like watching youtube videos because you always have to go through a lengthy explanation before you go to the movement pattern. And I really like to think, and work from first principles. So, if I start thinking about this, here is how it goes. I want to 'tire' hamstrings. And what do hamstrings do? They bend knee and extend hip. When they extend the hip they are helped by the glutes, so bending the knee will probably target hamstrings more than extending the hip.

OK so the squat looks like it - we are bending knees and extending hips. But the squats, even weighted ones, do not tire my hamstrings! Am I 'quad-dominant' person? Sure as hell I am not. (I know my body). So the thinking route tells me: when knees are bent while squatting DOWN, the hamstrings in squat are helped by the gravity force - which, pulling the body weight down, wants to bend the knee! We are working against the gravity force on the way UP, but that's when we extend the knee (the job of quads).

So in order to fire hamstrings and keep them working, I must get them to resist the gravity force while the knee is bent (and hamstrings are engaged).

Now practical solution. What i do in my seniors yoga class, before stretching the hamstrings, is putting them in a Chair pose for as long as they can bear breathing in it. Hamstrings are firing because the knees are bent, and they are working isometrically, against the force (gravity in this case), so they are really working. You add trying to 'lengthen' the spine (keep spine neutral) and lift arms up and you will fire hamstrings more.

(The Founder exercise from one of the youtube links looks just like that Chair pose. I don't really know why anyone needs to rename a good old Chair pose into something else? but the guys looked cute. Not at all like my seniors yoga students though)

And the bonus point: if you keep (and squeeze) your knees together in the Chair pose, or hold a block between knees, you will fire Vastus Medialis which is a great knee stabiliser frequently forgotten in many modern exercises and helpful for unstable/athritic knees.

Regarding the reps/time, I would give my seniors yoga students 5-10 breaths to keep the pose, then put them into Standing Forward Bend. Then back to Chair pose for another round, or two, of the same. I worked this routine out because it made sense to my brain and felt great in my legs.

Good luck! and if you find flaws in my thought pattern I am only very greateful for your feedback. I am here to learn not to teach!!

[Jim Pickles]

Olga - many thanks for your reply. I'm not sure I understand all your points or logic, so will address the issues as I see them now (having had advice from 2 experts who I trust):

1. In many squat positions the hamstrings are usually activated hard (as well as the quads and glutes). (However I should say that if I try, I can use my quads and glutes and hold the hamstrings nearly completely relaxed - but this is highly artificial and is only possible in some positions.)

2. The hamstrings seem not to generate strong sensations of contraction like the quads and glutes do, so it is possible to think that they have very little activation when in fact they are working.

3. I agree that sequence like The Founder is indeed related to the Chair, but it is different in a number of ways: 1. The cues are different, 2. The weight distribution is different. 3. There is a move between different positions, rather than just one being held. For all these reasons, I find it a far better activator of the posterior chain than a standard Chair (Utkatasana, at least in some forms of it that I have seen out there; there are also some variants that use the cues more like The Founder - this also relates to Kits comment above about people renaming older exercises.) My students like it too, and find it much superior to the Chair, at least as I was taught it.

The next issue is keeping the balance right between the glutes and the hamstrings when they do similar jobs - a separate issue which I have not addressed yet.

I had written a further bit responding to what I think you might be saying, but am not sure if that is what you meant. I decided not to post it as it was all getting rather involved, but I have it saved if you need to see it.

All the best,

Jim.

PS - added later - today by email I got more reports from my students on how much they like the Founder - it does seem to do something that the other exercises do not.

Edited May 11, 2015 by Jim Pickles

[Olga]

Jim! I am sorry to be confusing. The way I think about exercising a muscle, is to think of the action of that muscle (on the joints), and of forces that act upon that muscle and how to arrange those forces to make the muscle to work. That's all there is in my logic This way I can design, or modify, any exercise depending on my objectives.

I will think about the squats and the muscle balance in the squats more. I rarely teach them so they rare come into focus.

[SwissDanny]

Hi Olga, Im not much of a yogi but always experienced chair pose as a quad burn, but for sure if you focus on butt back rather than down it works the hammies...

... I'm trialling a new training programme that seems to like these brutal things: cavaet emptor: