Variation of jefferson curls? Stiff deadlift?

[Tibetanac]

Ok guys what do you think about my idea of doing jefferson curls with anterior tilt? I think it would open more space in my pike? What are your suggestions? I am gradually increased load on my jefferson curls like 25 kg now ( I started from 5 ) and I have a feeling I reached my maximum with it. Will my pike be better if I start doing them like that? Or I should start doing both?

[thecolin]

You should be able to get up to full body weight on jefferson curls over time. Assuming you don't weight 25kg, you've got a ways to go.

Two things I find are also helpful are doing static hold pnf work in the bottom position, and a bent leg weighted elephant walk. That is, in the bottom position, bending my legs to bring my knees fully to my chest fully, then gradually playing with straightening either both legs or one at a time. Extended holds (2 minutes+) work best for me. If your grip is the limiting factor for such a long hold time, use some straps so you can concentrate fully on your legs and not be distracted by worrying you're going to drop the weight.

I don't think trying to hold an anterior tilt will be very useful or productive. You should try to keep a posterior tilt for as long as possible as you descend. Somebody with more knowledge could probably better answer that specific point.

Feel free to upload a video if you want more specific advice on where you're getting stuck.

[Tibetanac]

Ok this is me first time hearing that one should be albe to get up to full body weight on JC. I understand the reason is we can overcome injuries with it but do you really think my flexibility will improve if I am doing JC with 75 kg? I dunno I would like Kit opinion about this. I also do pnf work at the bottom position, I will try weighted elephant walk. I will add focused calf stretches before my JC, and thecolin, are you doing pnf work after JC because I did and I improved big time. Maybe that what pre exhaust stretch is all about. I will upload video in thursday, that is when I am doing JC !

[Emmet Louis]

Once you get past a certain point jefferson curls aren't going to do much to improve flexibility. They're great for joint prep and other stuff but not for developing flexibility past a certain point.

The point of all these load flexibility/strength exercises is to make the new ranges more accessible and "functional" but we still need to use different methods to find these ranges and tight lines then use the right methods to strengthen them.

[MarkusO]

+1 for the weighted elephant walk! This exercise is, for me personally, golden. I love to finish a set of Jefferson curls with the weighted elephant walk. Moreover I find that I can focus much much better on the leg extension because of the counter weight. Give it a try!

[Tibetanac]

Thanks Emmet ! I will give it a try MarkusO, till then I will start doing one leg dog pose more often as I find it really good for my calves!

[Kit_L]

Neven wrote:

my idea of doing jefferson curls with anterior tilt?

Well, from my POV, it's not your idea; it's how Jefferson curls HAVE to be done, to have any benefit all. Or is this a terminology hiccup?

Anterior pelvic tilt, to my understanding, is when the top of the pelvis moves anteriorly (we say, "stick your butt out"); in the Jefferson curl, the pelvic anterior movement is limited exactly by the muscles we are trying to stretch, the hamstrings and (in some people) the adductors. If you held the pelvis neutral, or tilted it posteriorly, then only the spine would change shape, and any stretch effect would be confined to the spine. In reality, the hamstrings lengthen and the spine bends, up to the point where the hamstrings are loose enough for full compression at the hips plus a near-straight spine.

theColin's approach (weighted bent-leg elephant walk) is really effective (and helps get a tighter/flatter compression, too), I have found, and Emmet's suggestion of then finding other ways of working once this particular exercise's effectiveness has diminished is spot on, too.

There is a continuum here: the first few times you do a novel movement, its effect will be strong; its effectiveness can diminish over time (many reasons). But some, like the SLDP, just keep on giving—and have no limit (you can put your hands on blocks once your head is on the ground).

[Tibetanac]

Sorry Kit you misunderstood me , I meant the anterior tilt at the end of the ROM so lets say you do a jefferson curl to the end position where you can hold anterior tilt. Isnt that a stiff deadlift then? I am so confused right now ha ha. And I never ment to say that it is mine exercise but just an idea that popped into my head yesterday, sorry I am not best at english.

[Craig]

It depends what you are trying to do.

As far as I'm concerned, the Jefferson curl is a movement for the spine, and while it can help out with hamstring and calf flexibility, this is most certainly a bi product of the exercise and not the point. The point, if it's been taught well, is to focus on dropping one vertebra at a time, exercising control while under load. This will result in maximal spinal flexion by the end position. Attempting an anterior pelvic tilt will pull you out of spinal flexion, negating the whole point of the exercise IMO.

Now if you want to work on hamstring and calf flexibility, then you probably don't want to do the Jefferson curl at all. Either start with full anterior tilt (and probably a little bit of spinal extension for good measure) - this kind of "sticking the butt out" position - and go as low as you can using a hip hinge action, without losing the anterior tilt or the spinal extension (that is, no movement of the spine at all). Unless your hamstrings are flexible and very strong you probably can't go past a horizontal position with your body and won't be able to use a very heavy weight. I believe these are called good mornings in the weight lifting world, and if you could do a good morning deep enough to be able to pull a weight off the ground (holy crazy back of leg flexibility and strength!) then you could call it a straight leg deadlift. I find the single leg variation more useful than a loaded two leg version, as the balance element helps to prepare the tissue really effectively to handle loads in the lengthened position. This is the exercise Ido teaches primarily in his workshops (the single leg good morning).

The other option is to simply go straight into your best standing pike position, and at the bottom pull the hips into anterior tilt. This requires a fair amount of pelvic control, so it's unlikely a beginner can even do this properly or effectively, especially under load.

Neither of the exercises explained above are a Jefferson curl, despite looking similar. They are missing the necessary "curl" to be labeled such. Also probably missing Jefferson too

[Tibetanac]

Wow thank you Craig, big time! I got so confused after Kit last post about JC. I started to think I am doing them all the time wrong. I am doing it like this guy in the video Jefferson Curls:

So about on leg good mornings do you prefer time or reps?

[Craig]

Cant watch the video at work sorry! I'll check it out later.

Ive been doing 3 sets of 10 r with a 10 - 30s hold on the last rep, and doing both legs.

[Emmet Louis]

Slipped my mind on the earlier post but with my guys we stop using the Jefferson curl to develop the pike once the toes are above the wrists.

[thecolin]

Slipped my mind on the earlier post but with my guys we stop using the Jefferson curl to develop the pike once the toes are above the wrists.

I agree that they're not very useful beyond that point. It starts to become mostly a calf stretch once you get deep enough. That's why I like the bent leg version which moves the stretch sensation deep into my hips.

What's your preferred method for the pike?

[Emmet Louis]

What's your preferred method for the pike?

The main approach would be to add in some from of traction in a seated pike and with cues to help that persons specific stuck areas. Or the wall partner pike is one or my favourite general pike stretches

One of Irelands top powerlifters getting the wall pike from his 50kg GF. This is a nice stretch as it takes very little effort from the partner to get into a nice deep holdable position.

https://www.facebook...39688322778606/

You can see here the guy in the stripey top is using his hands to help rotate the pelvis, "up and over" while using his thighs to help with compression. Some good contractions can be done in this position.

https://www.facebook...pe=3&permPage=1

I've been doing a lot of research on the chinese style stretching while early day it seems to be doing wonders for peoples flexibility in pike and front folding. But its early days to say if its worse, equal or superior in the long run or just plain different.

[thecolin]

Interesting, thanks!

[Jason]

@Emmet Louis, for someone working on press-to-handstand, does the Jefferson Curl help with compression? I envision the rolling of the spine as an important part of pressing once the toes have left the ground. Thanks!