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Wondering if I can pick the collective mind?

Is it possible that your legs are too wide and your hips and legs are rolling over? Instead of compressing at the hip with the legs in a 90 degree straddle?

How far is you lower abdomen from the ground in pancake? It sounds like you might be leading with the head and rounding your back instead of keeping it straight and focusing on the hips.

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Yeah could be too wide now you mention it - I'm somewhere around 110 degrees. Its always just felt right to start at that width; I can still grab both my feet and its not my ROM (I'd guess thats 130ish) but I'll try closer to 90 and see how it goes. Lower abdomen is about the same as chest - there is a bit of back bend (I'm working on it!) but the stretch is all hips and top of the hamstrings.

Cheers

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  • 3 weeks later...

Haha nice...hows the grip on the wall? Its always useful to have wide stall bars :D

I should have foreseen this when I made mine :P

how wide would you make them? mine are 36inches dowels set maybe 1-2inches into the wood. maybe 48inch or whatever is the measurement from foot to foot if you make a 90 degree angle?

edit: forgot to quote Craig on this. #facepalm

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hey all, I just bought pancake mastery series as well I have a few questions regarding of those. Ok so does one have to master the squat to move onto the pancake series? Or it can be done both together? In the pancake and squat series in almost every " limbering " exercises kit is refering to the poses like -" in this stretching pose.." so I got confused limbering is more movement like to see your range of motion and Kit said that limbering shouldnt be painful and doesnt have any connection to the stretching in a way of improving your ROM so is this " stretching pose " just a Kits way of refering to the limbering pose or? And one more, I have searched and found couple of answers is pelvic tilt just about piriformis because I have a weird problem, when I am in a squat or I am in a full pike position or just sitting 90 degrees my lower back is curved ( cifosis ) but my thoraic part is in lordosis so I think my problem is I have too much thoraic mobility but that is maybe a good thing also but my lower back just isnt following. I dont have a lordosis or cifosis when I am straight so why does this curve appear when i try to mantain straight back form? I can be also full curved but when I try to straighten only my thoraic part of columna vertebrae and the neck part can be straight while I have a " hill " in my lower back lol. I dont know if I explained this well so I will post a pic from today training. Sorry for bad English everyone and Hi!

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Quite a lot of questions, I will help with the ST parts, others are more qualified on the bio-mechanics questions.

No each series is independent and aims to shows stretches and limbers that will help achieve the end pose, other than the shoulders one obviously. However the pike, pancake and full backbend are way more difficult moves than a squat. Pike and pancake focus more on the posterior chain mobility, whereas the backbend demands more anterior chain mobility. Squat is more focussed on hips and ankles.

Although the exercises are classed as limbers or stretches, there is some overlap. I think the easiest would be to say limbering is what you could do everyday to maintain or warm up your current range of motion. All the stretches can be done as limbers, just more gently and there might be easier alternatives to limber those muscles. Stretching would be done initially just once a week, working to find new range of motion, much more intense and demanding in terms of time and concentration and involve contract-relax much more. The poses tend to be carefully designed to maximise their potential for this. Limbers probably lend themselves less well to intense stretching because they tend to be more about being able to target areas but so you can easily move around and explore rather than isolate specific muscles.

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  • 3 weeks later...
  • 2 weeks later...

Even G (quoting me) said:

"But we will talk about that later"

Later is now! The limitation in the tailor pose is quadriceps AND a lack of softness in the hamstrings and calf muscles (this lack prevents the muscles flowing out of the way, absolutely necessary for full closing of the knee angle in the tailor pose). So, all the quadriceps stretches are the places to begin. And the lunge HF stretch from MFS is one of the best for this too, with a small addition (I intend to film this and put it up on YT):

Once you have done the basic HF limbering movement, push the body back (without moving the front foot position) and fold the back leg at the knee and hold it at arm's length with the opposite shoulder's hand. Then slowly go back into the lunge position: this will become a massive quad-HF stretch. Go though all the hip angle cues from MFS in this new position: this is one of the all-time best quad stretches I have found, so far. Video to come.
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  • 2 months later...

About tailors pose,

is it because of my horrible quad flexibility that the tailors stretch stresses my knees?

should i stretch tailors without trying (thin line between trying and forcing) to bring my feet close?

or should i skip tailors and just stretch quads until they are more flexible?

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About tailors pose,

is it because of my horrible quad flexibility that the tailors stretch stresses my knees?

should i stretch tailors without trying (thin line between trying and forcing) to bring my feet close?

or should i skip tailors and just stretch quads until they are more flexible?

Tight quads (and maybe hips?) did seem to cause stress in my knees. A couple of months ago, I had a routine in which I did a couple of quad and hip flexor stretches and the tailor's pose with the feet at the closest distance that does not stress the knees. The distance between my body and my feet and my knees and the ground decreased by a lot within those months.

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About tailors pose,

is it because of my horrible quad flexibility that the tailors stretch stresses my knees?

should i stretch tailors without trying (thin line between trying and forcing) to bring my feet close?

or should i skip tailors and just stretch quads until they are more flexible?

Very likely, that would be my working hypothesis. You can do both, of course. If you can get a good stretch, and there is no tweakyness then go for it -however, you might want stretch the quads before the tailor pose. Even when it is not "quad day" - it does not have to be a very long stretch, just some limbering will do.

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  • 5 months later...

@ Tibetanac:

 

I wrote: 

 

 

and fold the back leg at the knee and hold it at arm's length with the opposite shoulder's hand. 

 

That should have been "and fold the back leg at the knee and hold the foot at arm's length with the opposite shoulder's hand. 

 

hth, K

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Commenting on Olivia's post above, working on moving the pelvis, rather than "trying to do the pancake" has been a revelation for me. I tend to use too much force to do most things—so this is my tendency in stretching, too. To sit in good pancake form, and to concentrate on moving the pelvis and trunk without using the arms has changed this pose for me.

 

The effects in the pelvic floor are amazing, frankly, and unexpected. I feel that there's a flow of energy to this area, as well as to the two fascia 'cups' around the ischial tuberosities is a brand new sensation—and as she said, I have been doing this for a while now. 

 

Interestingly, too, is that when you first try this there will be the sense of zero movement being available; persisting opens up a whole new space. Just using the hip/groin muscles now, I can get the trunk (with a perfectly straight back) to past 45 degrees in all directions now. I am sure this will pay off in the active exercises like straddle compression, too; will try today. We are using the same muscles to do both.

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There is some really exciting stuff going on here!

 

I have not personally been doing a daily pulsing or ballistic protocol, but have had toyed with them since Emmet's OP.  I have been doing 2x per weeks some "ballistic" stuff, Shi Pa Dan and hip flexor mostly.  I realize from the last few days' traffic I was never doing ballistic, but always more like pulses. These just felt right from the outset for me and are definitely effective.

 

I also think that in my own practise, compared to "classic" ST protocol I have been doing a lot of slow pulses for the longest while; I will often do 6+ relatively fast C-R sequences.  I just seems to fit the way I am wired. That said, my feeling is that this does require a certain stretching experience, but with so many "recidivists" present in London next month, do you think this can be integrated to the program (incl ITS) in some shape or form?

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Commenting on Olivia's post above, working on moving the pelvis, rather than "trying to do the pancake" has been a revelation for me.

 

Same here! I have to admit that I never really was able to move the pelvis (and did not understand how that should feel like) until I raised my hips a bit. When sitting directly on the floor I am still too stiff to tilt the pelvis, even though I can get my legs apart far enough. 

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When I stand in a straddle then move to a standing pancake by pushing the hips back and hinging forward my hip flexors fire like crazy (I'd almost call it painful), once I'm as deep as I can go I stand up and if I repeat the movement again my hip flexors fire but I can deeper and wider with more reps. I also have a lot of tension in the "under butt".

Any idea what's going on? I think I have weak/inactive glutes which cause the hip flexors to over compensate?

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mtruelove

 

If I've understood the sequence you are describing, what's happening is that your hip flexors are in their maximally contract position and they are cramping/spasming: you are trying to use them to hinge further forward at the hips – unless you are pulling with your arms/lats, what other muscles can you engage to produce the hip hinge. And, if your are tight in the 'underbutt' muscles, they are not able to relax (lengthen) to allow the increased forward bend (additional hip flexion) – the hip flexors are having to pull against (even) more resistance on the opposite side of the joint, in other words.

 

In the standing positions, the smaller glutes (minimus and medius) are having to do the job of stabilising the pelvis against all of these forces (not so much the case if you were seated), so perhaps inactivity/weakness in these is a factor, but a secondary one, I suspect: a case of overload. Suggest you work at a lower intensity, so your hip flexors don't cramp: build the strength and stabilisation over time via the standing work; and, use less loaded versions of the same positions to improve actual flexibility.

 

Final comment: cramping per se is not a problem, more 'how much is too much'? Only you can make that assessment.

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When I stand in a straddle then move to a standing pancake by pushing the hips back and hinging forward my hip flexors fire like crazy (I'd almost call it painful), once I'm as deep as I can go I stand up and if I repeat the movement again my hip flexors fire but I can deeper and wider with more reps. I also have a lot of tension in the "under butt".

Any idea what's going on? I think I have weak/inactive glutes which cause the hip flexors to over compensate?

 Stand in a straddle and turn your toes in slightly and then try hinging might need to reduce the width and report back. 

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Thank you both for the quick response. I'm certainly tight throughout the whole hip. The third world squat is a newly acquired position for me and I certainly feel a lot of new things going on recently, driving the knees out during the horse stance has had a huge impact on my flexibility and moved a lot of what I felt previously in my legs into the hips in terms of where I feel the stretch.

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