Sleeping on the Floor

[MT Nordic]

Along similar lines, are you guys aware of any info on proper sleeping form, especially if you take the modern day bed out of the picture. Is there a proper or comfortable way to sleep on the hard ground without bugging your lateral hips and to not use a pillow without bugging your neck? Or do we have beds and pillows for a reason?

[[DW]]

MT Nordic - this is a very good question and a topic all of its own.. I actually re-trained myself to sleep without a pillow, on my back (but still on a bed, not a futon) - and have found it vastly superior to the combination front and sides I used to use. I know sleeping on ones' back is sometimes not-recommended, but I have personally found it offers far more refreshing, if slightly lighter, sleep...

[Joakim Anderson]

I slept on the floor for six months last year, with a pillow though. Compromising with my wife now and sleeping on a thin mattress on the floor. But I like sleeping on my side and its a little hard without a pillow.

On a trip to Ghana a few years ago I visited a village and saw some bedrooms there: blankets on concrete floor under moquito net, no pillows or anything. And everyone could climb coconut trees without neck or back pain.

[[DW]]

** I have created this topic out of a sub-topic from the 'Sitting and Living on the Floor' post.

[[DW]]

On a trip to Ghana a few years ago I visited a village and saw some bedrooms there: blankets on concrete floor under moquito net, no pillows or anything.

Hardcore. I found that via doing the yoga nidra practice (and other lying relaxation practices), that my spine was able to learn to relax far more deeply than I thought, even on hard wood (haven't tried concrete yet!). When I sleep like this (on my back) now, I don't use a pillow (it feels un-comfortable to have my neck flexed and the rest of my spine straight..and that would possibly train forward head posture deeper into the system.. at any rate, I find beginning the night in this position is optimal, though I sometimes move to a side-lying position - for which I do use a pillow. The temptation to enter the drug-like oblivion of stomach sleeping is high, but avoidable.

[Craig]

I prefer to sleep on a solid ground (concrete, carpet, whatever) with a very thin pillow (something like a thin zabuton) that I can fold, that way if i turn to my side the head can be up but if im on my back the head can be down.

Its a relatively common practise in China to sleep on hardwood, and lots of Dao type people actually use 5 elements theory to select particular types of wood for particular effects. The standard for bedding when i was travelling there in 2011 was basically a plank with a "matress" that was basically as thick as a summer doona cover. i got very used to sleeping like this, it's like an all night massage, feel fantastic in the morning

[[DW]]

lots of Dao type people actually use 5 elements theory to select particular types of wood for particular effects.

That is interesting!

Lol @ 'all night massage'!

[MT Nordic]

Interesting stuff. I've often thought that we evolved sleeping on hard ground and without pillows, so it should theoretically be a good sleeping position. However, we probably were also not sleeping in long blocks of 8 hours like we do now, so is it different? I've read that our bodies are meant to sleep on the skeleton instead of the soft tissues, even read conjecture that it could improve bone density and blood flow to the extremities. Obviously no studies looking at this stuff, so just was curious about people's experiences. I doubt I'd ever talk my wife into it, but i'd be very interested in a tatami mat on the floor or on a low platform bed. I guess you would just lay a thick blanket over the mat to keep it clean, then whatever you need for warmth over the top. Seems like a simple, fairly inexpensive, solution. I however, like to sleep on my side, and I think i'd have trouble without a pillow holding my neck in neutral position.

[MT Nordic]

also, thanks for starting the new thread

[Kit_L]

I slept for many years on the floor, on a thinnish futon, and always lying face up and pillow on the floor behind me. When I turned onto my side, I will automatically reach for the pillow for head support. I sleep like this today, but on a bed most of the time.

When on retreat, though (twice a year) I use the same futon on a hardwood floor. Perfectly comfortable for me. As well, only a hardish sitting cushion for pillow.

In early Japan, the 'pillows' were carved wooden blocks, about 4" high. My feeling about pillows is that they need to be thick enough to support the neck in neutral alignment when on one's side; no pillow when on one's back. Like Dave, through years of practise (same one, yoga nidra) my back developed the capacity to relax completely onto the floor, and that still happens. I have never slept on my stomach.

[Joakim Anderson]

In early Japan, the 'pillows' were carved wooden blocks, about 4" high.

Interesting!

[Keilani Gutierrez]

I've heard about putting pressure on the thymus making us have some intense dreams, when one sleeps on the stomach. is this what you guys are refering to? or something else altogethger?

[[DW]]

putting pressure on the thymus making us have some intense dreams

I have not heard this..interesting. From an Ayuvedic perspective tummy sleeping deranges all the doshas, I believe. At any rate, my own sleep is deep, more dream-filled and 'drugged' feeling (and often un-freshing) - when on the front. Back is lighter, but more re-freshing IF I enter sleep in an aware way (i.e not just pass out from exhaustion).

KG - Where did you get the thymus info?

[Keilani Gutierrez]

no idea. i will keep this in mind, if i remember or run into it again, i believe it was in writing. (collecting from memory) i'll report back with it.

I only entertained that notion(as a partial fact, because i have no way of testing it or know enough about the endocrine system) to figure that putting pressure on a gland responsible for emotional hormone release to induce pleasurable or haunting like dreams. i cannot say that i can tell the different. only that my neck is a little tighter in the morning.

[Adurst]

I find this interesting.

For sometime I was suffering from snapping tricep syndrome. And a mild case of cubital tunnel syndrome.

I solved these issues with a few simple changes

1) stretching

------

But more relevant here

2) sleeping on my back with my hands tucked in my pants

I had always been a tummy sleeper and tucked my arms under my body like a T-Rex

I haven't done much research learning on the topic...but there are a lots of inferences/references around about the evils of tummy sleeping...even one earlier in this thread.

An observation is that both of my children preferentially sleep on their tummies...the youngest is cursing the "back to sleep" SIDS program and preferentially fast tracking her roll to correct our obstructive parenting.

I also never had issues sleeping on my stomach till I became an adult and got a "real"/soft bed...in fact for weeks at a time during summers I would sleep on the ground and even on Canadian Shield granite on canoe trips. As this was pre-thermal rests.

So...is tummy sleeping bad? Why?

I attribute most of my problems to my specific arm positions...not tummy sleeping generally.

[Keilani Gutierrez]

Adhurst, (Adam, was it? i apologize if that isn't your name)

i used to get snapping in my tricep region as well and recently solve it with some good ol' tricep smashing. have't gotten a click during Shoulder Extension yet

[Adurst]

It is Adam

By smashing are you referring to releases using a cricket ball, roller or my favorite a barbell on the tricep?

I've well and truly fixed this issue, (the snapping) mostly with stretching. I had crazy amounts of passive tension in my arms...my biceps looked purposely flexed when my arm was straight.

The sleeping was causing issues with the nerve at the elbow...the snapping then argrivated the already inflamed nerve.

Crazy to think I at one brief moment considered surgery.

[MichaelCan]

Hi Adurst, can you elaborate at all on what stretching fixed your snapping triceps problem? I have the same issue. I think I have very tight biceps - pretty much all stretches I do that are meant to target the chest/biceps I feel all the stretch right in the crook of the elbow.

[Adurst]

It was just very exploratory.

And in the ends as quite a few

But ones I liked and felt helped

-Kits partner stick stretch

- hand behind head and lean elbow into door frame

- lat stretches where you arch your torso away

There isn't a magic bullet....can guarantee that stretching everything and anything from your fingers-forearm-elbow-shoulder-rotator cuff-neck-lats/intercostals/obliques/QL will all help

Massively.

[Adurst]

I might add that a couple sessions with a good manual therapist can really kick start things in the right direction.

I've found that a good manual release (fascial, trigger point, reflexology, remedial massage) helps prior to starting to stretch something that is broken.

While there is pain your brain shuts down the sensory pathways...which are key in stretching effectively. So by resetting the sensory pathways you can then feel your way to stretching...vs fighting it/hiding from it....a short simplistic lay explanation.

But Kit or someone who has thought about this for longer might have a more accurate and/or detailed explanation.

[MichaelCan]

Thanks a lot for the tips, I appreciate it!

[-MR]

Along similar lines, are you guys aware of any info on proper sleeping form, especially if you take the modern day bed out of the picture. Is there a proper or comfortable way to sleep on the hard ground without bugging your lateral hips and to not use a pillow without bugging your neck? Or do we have beds and pillows for a reason?

Here's the only thing I've ever found on the topic: http://www.ncbi.nlm....82/pdf/1616.pdf

I found it fascinating when I first read it, and still use some of the positions at times.

[[DW]]

Tribal people do not like lying on the ground in the recovery position while wearing no clothes as the penis

dangles in the dust and can get bitten by insects.

Sagely advice!

..F*%k you would wake up fast if your Johnson was stung by ants or a scorpion.

Jokes aside; that was an interesting article, and this is a very interesting topic. Thanks -MR!

[Adurst]

Thanks for the Article MR...good stuff

Interesting....I'm definetly naturally a "lookout" sleeper.

I attributed this position to some of my elbow issues. But likely not this position alone, as I had slept this way up till ~24yrs old in this position without issue.

I think that humans have always sought comfort...and didn't slept on surfaces such as bare rock, unless another choice (moss, pine bows, grass etc) wasn't easily available. Which could have been often in certain circumstance.

The problem is that we've taken this (comfort) too far and perverted the idea of comfort to something similar to sloth/lethargy.

Having slept on my back for a few years (hands tucked in pants)...I personally feel this is unnatural for me. (Especially the hands)..but has been therapeutic.

[AndeL]

That article is good... I am going to try these. The dude looks/sounds awesome.