Developing Strength at End ROM

[oliviaa]

I'm not so convinced about the utility of the hanging pancake for progressing the pelvic tilt that's required for the pancake. Unless you've got really good grip and lat strength to pull the pelvis into an anterior tilt, the tail will be tucked. You'll still get the lengthening effect from hanging off the arms, and some decent hamstring/adductor stretch work happening, but not the pelvic tilt.

Agree with Cody and Chris about using the standing pancake work to progress the pelvic tilt. Then, when doing seated (floor) pancake progressions, raise the hips on a rolled up mat just to the point that your pelvis tips anteriorly with minimum to no effort, and you can bend the knees a little too, then work on all the reaching drills to get the active hip flexion component.

[Adurst]

Video of Straddle-Up

You can start by lowering to a riser/Reebok step to reduce range.

Key is to use adductors and hamstrings to lower and pull out.

Can be nicely combined with some passive and ballistic stretches (hanging or bouncing).

http://youtu.be/5jDZlSodw48

[terje]

@ Adurst, thanks for the video. That is a new one to me and I will give it a try once I am ready for it.

[Adurst]

@ Adurst, thanks for the video. That is a new one to me and I will give it a try once I am ready for it.

Reduce the range with a step or bench. Or don't do the lower...just the good morning element.

[Cody Sunkel]

I'm not so convinced about the utility of the hanging pancake for progressing the pelvic tilt that's required for the pancake. Unless you've got really good grip and lat strength to pull the pelvis into an anterior tilt, the tail will be tucked. You'll still get the lengthening effect from hanging off the arms, and some decent hamstring/adductor stretch work happening, but not the pelvic tilt.

Agree with Cody and Chris about using the standing pancake work to progress the pelvic tilt. Then, when doing seated (floor) pancake progressions, raise the hips on a rolled up mat just to the point that your pelvis tips anteriorly with minimum to no effort, and you can bend the knees a little too, then work on all the reaching drills to get the active hip flexion component.

Thanks Olivia! Glad to hear we're on the right track with the standing pancake, and it makes sense to raise the hips up when going to seated. I'll incorporate this into the program and see how it goes.

Video of Straddle-Up

You can start by lowering to a riser/Reebok step to reduce range.

Key is to use adductors and hamstrings to lower and pull out.

Can be nicely combined with some passive and ballistic stretches (hanging or bouncing).

Cool thanks heaps for the video! I've seen the straddle up in a few of Ido's students videos - they use steps and reduce the height as they progress, like you mentioned. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the goal is to be able to do it without hand assistance? I also think it can be slightly tweaked to become a useful tool for developing the protraction of the stalder press to a certain extent, though thats a different can of worms.

[Adurst]

Cool thanks heaps for the video! I've seen the straddle up in a few of Ido's students videos - they use steps and reduce the height as they progress, like you mentioned. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the goal is to be able to do it without hand assistance? I also think it can be slightly tweaked to become a useful tool for developing the protraction of the stalder press to a certain extent, though thats a different can of worms.

re: hands - no...while possibly not impossible...the hands are integral...once you do it you'll see. From a box you could maybe do it...but then range is reduced.

Technically in Ido's method...this comes just prior to weighted pancakes.

Straddle ups reduced ranged->full range->elevated weighted pancake->floor weighted pancake...I don't yet know what comes next.

And as for stralder...yes and no...similar...but different...if I remember I can film the drills I've been shown...despite being pretty far myself from this goal.

[Adurst]

On this...Kit has a version using benches in a corner which I really like!

[terje]

@Adurst thanks for the tip, yes, I am already starting to work on the good mornings.

BTW, is anyone familiar with Tom Kurtz latest DVD where his method of loaded stretching is basically to work up to a super wide squat? You work until you are below parallel, then go wider etc.

[terje]

re: hands - no...while possibly not impossible...the hands are integral...once you do it you'll see. From a box you could maybe do it...but then range is reduced.

Technically in Ido's method...this comes just prior to weighted pancakes.

Straddle ups reduced ranged->full range->elevated weighted pancake->floor weighted pancake...I don't yet know what comes next.

And as for stralder...yes and no...similar...but different...if I remember I can film the drills I've been shown...despite being pretty far myself from this goal.

I wonder why it's pancakes and not weighted good mornings. It seems more like a natural and more functional progression.

[Adurst]

I wonder why it's pancakes and not weighted good mornings. It seems more like a natural and more functional progression.

That may just be me...his progressions are geared to people's strengths and weaknesses.

However all these moves are essentially the same with different orientations of weight and gravity.

If the straddle good morning is what I think it is...I'd put it first...prior to straddle-ups as it would be better at initiating the hip hinge, but only to 90degrees....maybe? I have no idea really.

[Cody Sunkel]

That may just be me...his progressions are geared to people's strengths and weaknesses.

However all these moves are essentially the same with different orientations of weight and gravity.

If the straddle good morning is what I think it is...I'd put it first...prior to straddle-ups as it would be better at initiating the hip hinge, but only to 90degrees....maybe? I have no idea really.

That's what Im thinking. Thanks for the info!

Re: straddle ups - I met one of Ido's previous students (Keith from Melbourne) at Ido's Brisbane seminar, and he demonstrated the "no hands straddle up" which blew my mind. But basically he went from a very wide seated straddle, rocked forward and pushed into an iso middle split, then did a slow negative back to seated. Clearly he had plenty of adductor strength to perform it, but after seeing that I always figured that once the iso split got low enough and the seated straddle wide enough (along with loaded pancake strength), it would be possible to work straddle ups assisted and then unassisted. Still out of my reach for the time being, but after gaining some strength from the pancake, I can see it happening in the future.

[Adurst]

That's what Im thinking. Thanks for the info!

Re: straddle ups - I met one of Ido's previous students (Keith from Melbourne) at Ido's Brisbane seminar, and he demonstrated the "no hands straddle up" which blew my mind. But basically he went from a very wide seated straddle, rocked forward and pushed into an iso middle split, then did a slow negative back to seated. Clearly he had plenty of adductor strength to perform it, but after seeing that I always figured that once the iso split got low enough and the seated straddle wide enough (along with loaded pancake strength), it would be possible to work straddle ups assisted and then unassisted. Still out of my reach for the time being, but after gaining some strength from the pancake, I can see it happening in the future.

For no hands:

-butt was off the floor? Riser? Or on the floor?

- legs where wider the 120degree open? Must have been pretty close to side splits, if the butt was on the floor.

I've split my training in this area into 3+ modules

Pike - max hamstring

Side splits - max adductors

Pancake @ 120degrees open which maxes both hamstring and abductor for the move...narrower biases hamstrings, wider biases adductors.

Obviously it isn't quite that simple...I've moved off of Ido for a while as (counter-intuitively) I was getting super strong and flexible...but I wasn't becoming a better mover...in Ido's eyes still very much in the isolate stage.

I'm training with Rafe Kelley at the moment with more parkour and movnat inspired play and skills...in an effort to allow me to reimagine how I move through the world/an environment...rather then just be super strong and flexible.

I'm sure there is good logic to Ido's programing that he was giving me...likely come back through other workshops or a retreat rather then the online training. I know he ends up at a similar destination, arguably more holistic...I just wasn't getting enough.

I'm also going to try and make more FaceTime with local specialist coaches this year in parkour, gymnastics (tumbling, handstand and pommel horse), and martial arts...in addition to Rafe and the other random influences that side track me...for the better.

[Emmet Louis]

Can confirm the no hands straddle as a thing. One of the circus training spaces I've trained at, possibly Circus Centre SF, though not 100% one of the acro coaches had a hard on for straddle stand lower til your bum was hovering then come back to stand.

Question: Whats a good frequency for doing these LPS movements?

[Craig]

Ive been shooting for daily but realistically getting about 3 - 4 times per week.

Also I have been working on a theory about DOMS, I'm reasonably certain that you can work through DOMS without negative impact on the system. (at least this appears to hold true in my body...more tests to be done!)

[Adurst]

Can confirm the no hands straddle as a thing. One of the circus training spaces I've trained at, possibly Circus Centre SF, though not 100% one of the acro coaches had a hard on for straddle stand lower til your bum was hovering then come back to stand.

Question: Whats a good frequency for doing these LPS movements?

Ido had me doing them daily. High frequency, low intensity. Mobility and handstand routine everyday, strength programs rotated.

Was 10reps (per side if required), hold final position for 10secs on last rep.

But possibly different for other stretches or level of intensity.

[Emmet Louis]

Ive been shooting for daily but realistically getting about 3 - 4 times per week.

Also I have been working on a theory about DOMS, I'm reasonably certain that you can work through DOMS without negative impact on the system. (at least this appears to hold true in my body...more tests to be done!)

I agree on the DOMS front, done a training cycle last year where I squatted 6x per week to a daily maximum by about day 10-12 I stopped getting DOMS. Also went from 120kg start to 170kg over the course of 8-9 weeks

[Frederik]

Ive been shooting for daily but realistically getting about 3 - 4 times per week.

Also I have been working on a theory about DOMS, I'm reasonably certain that you can work through DOMS without negative impact on the system. (at least this appears to hold true in my body...more tests to be done!)

Re frequency are we talking about doing it as a split ie. pancake and middle splits on the same day, and say hip flexion on a another day?

Or is the thinking that is a daily routine?

regards,

Frederik

[Adurst]

Re frequency are we talking about doing it as a split ie. pancake and middle splits on the same day, and say hip flexion on a another day?

Or is the thinking that is a daily routine?

regards,

Frederik

I've been doing it all daily

But as with Craig...life gets in the way, or other playing/training...and ends up being 4-5 times a week.

[Cody Sunkel]

Re frequency are we talking about doing it as a split ie. pancake and middle splits on the same day, and say hip flexion on a another day?

Or is the thinking that is a daily routine?

regards,

Frederik

I've been doing that ^^ split. Loaded pike and front split variations Monday and Friday, Loaded straddle and middle split variations Wednesday and Saturday, with Oly lifting Tues Fri and Sat. Recovery has been fine after an initial phase of DOMs (which I also think are fine to work through so long as the differentiation between DOMS and injury is made).

@ Adurst - I'm in that same predicament - too much training not enough movement. I practice little bits and pieces of "movement" like ground flow, brachiating, vaulting, etc. as warm-up and randomly when I have extra time, but its not enough. I think a more movement biased approach like Rafe's or Craig/Simon's would be better for most, after some preparation.

[Adurst]

@cody

I'm only on week three with Rafe...but so far is awesome.

Demand on time is similar to Ido 1.5-3 hours a day five days per week.

He said 6 hours per week when we started, that might be true if you already knew what to do, didn't mess about and didn't need to film.

But is much easier to incorporate into life...50% of that is best done outdoors in playgrounds, woodlands/parks and urban environments. 25% can be easily done at home (all the joint prep and mobility) and 25% you need a gym.

Good mix or skills and physical preparation. Every week the skills have advanced. Not mine (yes mine) but the program...ground flow gets new elements, climbing skills switch up, jumping skills, rolls and breakfalls all advance.

25-50% of the program changes every week!

Has been fun! But more expensive then Ido...but way more contact, feedback and programming.

[Frederik]

I have been thinking about whether or not the Cossack Squat might be a candidate as an advanced loaded mobility element? It seems to move from a strong adductor stretch through a low horse horse stance / squat. Even sitting back, and getting back up from the bottom position ie. like the straddle up.

Weighted as a Goblet KB or even a barbell version?

Thoughts?

cheers,

Frederik

[Emmet Louis]

I have been thinking about whether or not the Cossack Squat might be a candidate as an advanced loaded mobility element? It seems to move from a strong adductor stretch through a low horse horse stance / squat. Even sitting back, and getting back up from the bottom position ie. like the straddle up.

Weighted as a Goblet KB or even a barbell version?

Thoughts?

cheers,

Frederik

I do it during my training so far have worked up to 16kg for 20 reps, ten per leg, with a hold of 10 seconds on the last rep.

[Frederik]

@Emmet, do you sit back down/get up or is it "just" the normal ROM?

[Cody Sunkel]

Check out Dewey Nielsen and Dr. Andreo Spina's work on Instagram if you have it. They do a lot of loaded "patterns" like Cossack squat to seated, loaded behind-the-leg pistols, etc. Pretty cool stuff, if you ask me.

[Emmet Louis]

@Frederik its just the normal rom, I don't think my levers allow a sit down with out a rocking in and out of it

Edit: Some gems here, thanks Cody http://instagram.com/drandreospina