How long should a stretch session be?

[Kit_L]

Colin wrote:

If only it translated into some incredible recovery capacity to build strength and remold my body!

That physical work will affect (to some extent) how quickly you can adapt to the GST work—without any doubt. OTOH, it will help with DOMS, too (my work, sitting at a computer, is the worst in this regard).

But with the straps I can get a really deep stretch without worrying about my forearms. I then read what you were saying about how the body can only focus on one strong stretch sensation at a time, which seems to be the case for me with this stretch.

Perfect.

[thecolin]

So I tried for a 2x two minute holds on the weighted pike today which felt good. There's a deep dark corner of my right hip that shouts "go away!" when I get too close. I think this little gremlin is probably the main inhibition for this movement right now, and when I can exorcise it, I'll probably be able to get a lot deeper. When I get into this deep ROM, some unknown synapse in my brain fires and actively tries to keep me out of it. I'll keep working on it.

The longer holds seem productive in that I find I can get into the deeper ROM within the first 60 seconds, and concentrate on working into it. Whereas with 5x30 seconds I was only getting into that ROM at the end of the last set.

I did some standing leg extension drills on the floor in between the pike holds, but the primary sensation I get is my glutes firing to keep my supporting leg and hips from bending as I extend the elevated leg. Minimal to zero sensations in the quads of HFs, even though I can get just above parallel and my leg is trembling from the exertion.

[Kit_L]

Colin wrote:

The longer holds seem productive in that I find I can get into the deeper ROM within the first 60 seconds, and concentrate on working into it. Whereas with 5x30 seconds I was only getting into that ROM at the end of the last set

This is exactly why we all need to find out what our own body wants, and why the formula approach, which can be great for strength or aerobic training, falls far short when the goal is flexibility.

Can you show a pic of the extension exercise you are referring to in the last paragraph?

[thecolin]

Can you show a pic of the extension exercise you are referring to in the last paragraph?

Here it is more or less, though I bring my knee much higher, and keep it as high as possible as I extend slowly.

But as I said, it doesn't really seem to activate my HFs or quads.

What does seem to activate them quite effectively is the L-sit. But that's quite a ways off for me, at least in terms of Foundation progression. So I'm not sure if it's too early to put it into a regular routine, or if it's even the most effective way to train active compression.

[Tris]

Colin wrote:

The longer holds seem productive in that I find I can get into the deeper ROM within the first 60 seconds, and concentrate on working into it. Whereas with 5x30 seconds I was only getting into that ROM at the end of the last set.

Kit wrote:

This is exactly why we all need to find out what our own body wants, and why the formula approach, which can be great for strength or aerobic training, falls far short where the goal is flexibility.

Speaking of the formula approach... I struggle with 5x5 Jefferson curls (as prescribed in a GST program).

I have read from Tom Kurz that dynamic stretching is only productive until the muscles begin to fatigue. At this point the ROM begins to lessen, and more reps in the fatigued stated just reinforces the limited ROM movement into the nervous system. It is far better to just stop once you have peaked at your max ROM.

This makes sense to me, as I find my max ROM is in the 3rd/4th set of 5 reps. At this point, the hamstrings fatigue, ROM quickly lessens and it feels like a real grind.

[Kit_L]

@ Colin:

What does seem to activate them quite effectively is the L-sit.

So, hang from a bar, and lift one leg (bent, to feel it, then straight; this latter will require the quads and HFs to activate) while keeping the other pressed straight, in line with a straight spine. It's definitely not too early to develop this strength. Once one leg has sufficient height, work on two—this is much harder though.

There are two schools of thought (at least); those who say only the straight leg versions are worth doing (because of the quad. and HF requirement) and there are others who recommend the bent knee approach; this latter more deeply activates psoas and then the entire core as the spine is required to flex to get the knees higher than wherever your hip stop the thighs going higher. IMHO, we need both and the one to emphasis is the one you are worst at!

As well, and this might be surprising, if you can get the knees to the chest with a straight back (like me) that's where the wall squat exercise can be gold.

Last point is it all depends on your body. So (@ wheezer now) what you have found is gold for you (I'm the same that way, too, BTW). Three sets is perfect in the dynamic stuff.

[thecolin]

I think I've really hit paydirt with this new pike drill, I put my forehead on my shins this morning.

In addition to the 2x2 minute weighted pike hangs with wrist straps, I've worked out a slight variation on the hanging leg compression drill. I get into the same position as the hanging lifts, back flat against the stall bars, hands above me on the bars. But I do this with my butt on the ground. In this position I can focus completely on just isolating and lifting the legs, and I get a great activation of my quads and HFs. I do one set for warm up, another in between the weighted pike stretchs, and a third one at the end. On the first set my legs were comfortably off the ground, on the third, the distance had probably doubled. I want to get to 45 degrees of active compression in this position.

I'm doing this drill twice a week, adding weight every week. I think I want to get up to a full body weight pike hang, or is that totally insane?

Focusing on just one strong sensation at a time seems to really paying dividends.

[thecolin]

that's where the wall squat exercise can be gold.

I forgot to ask, where is the description of the wall squat?

Is it this one? http://www.fitsugar.com/Strengthen-Quads-Avoid-Runner-Knee-Wall-Squats-3028663

Or something else?

[Kit_L]

No, this one:

​I do not recommend strengthening quads for hill running power either: you need glutes for that (referring to the perspective put on the page Colin linked to). This is not a good exercise, IMHO, but the free-space version is excellent.

[thecolin]

​I do not recommend strengthening quads for hill running power either

Sorry, ignore the article, I didn't even read it. That just what I came up when searching for 'wall squat'.

I read through the whole post, good stuff. I also have some stomach questions to run by you. Nothing urgent, just something odd. I'll ask you about it in November.

I was actually thinking recently about what you said with straddle flexibility, if you can't sit up in the position, you're just wasting your time trying to stretch with it. I think I was probably making the same mistake trying to do single leg static holds. I could stay there with a counter weight, but not with the right muscle activation, so this is perfect.

Here's my attempt, feet together, back flat against the wall. My left (tight) ankle tries to lift up in this position and I can feel my shin muscles activating strongly. Does it look right?

Should be pulling my knees to my chest from here? Or try to move them forwards?

[Kit_L]

Looks great; you wrote:

Should be pulling my knees to my chest from here? Or try to move them forwards?

Try to pull the knees to the chest (ankles look plenty loose) and straighten your back at the same time. You will feel this deep in the his themselves (inside the joints).

[thecolin]

Can you show a pic of the extension exercise you are referring to in the last paragraph?

A had a moment this morning to take some pictures of the compression exercises I'm currently toying with. The first is hanging from the bar and raising both legs, but my back tends to want to come up (thus my legs are higher) and I feel it the tension a lot more spread out, as opposed to in my quads and HFs. The second is the same position but sitting on the floor, pressing my lower back into the bars as I lift my legs.

And the last pic is my current flexibility after working the 2x2 minute weighted pike stretches.

[Tris]

Nice pike Colin!

Can you get your Jefferson curl lower than in the profile pic? Reason I ask is my curl is about that low but my standing pike is much less for the moment.

[thecolin]

Can you get your Jefferson curl lower than in the profile pic?

Yes, that pic is from a while ago, I can get deeper now. I've had a bit of a breakthrough with this new routine.

If you're comfortable with the j-curl, have you tried working the weighted pike stretch?

[Tris]

have you tried working the weighted pike stretch?

Holy crap!!

I just did 4 x 1min holds after regular J-curl session. I could feel all the tension in the hamstrings gradually melt away. After the sets I pushed my nose into my knees - locked.

What is this voodoo??

[Keilani Gutierrez]

Holy crap!!

I just did 4 x 1min holds after regular J-curl session. I could feel all the tension in the hamstrings gradually melt away. After the sets I pushed my nose into my knees - locked.

What is this voodoo??

it is voodoo, boo-boo.

[thecolin]

What is this voodoo??

I wonder if weighted stretching is in any way analogous to partner stretching? I find it lets me relax into the stretch while being pulled by an external force.

[Kit_L]

Colin wrote:

I wonder if weighted stretching is in any way analogous to partner stretching? I find it lets me relax into the stretch while being pulled by an external force.

Very similar except: partner stretching allows you to relax fully (you can't do that with J-curls!), and there is an as-yet undefined body-to-body interaction effect that is profound.

[Jaroslav Gray]

Tried J-Curls yesterday with 24kg kettlebell. 4x1 min with foam rolling between. I'm sore today in hamstrings for the First Time in my life after stretching. Right now i know what's the feeling after good stretching session

[Kit_L]

Increase that weight slower than you will feel you can do: muscles adapt a LOT faster than some of the other soft tissues involved (ligaments have about 1/10th of the blood/nutrient supply as muscles). I worked up to doing these with a 120lb dumbbell at one point, years ago.