How long should a stretch session be?

[mtruelove]

I normally do a stretch session twice a week, just after my "leg day" (I'm following foundation) and typically spend no more than half an hour.

Is this enough time? Also, after 2-3 CR how long should I hold my final ROM? typically I hold for 10 slow breaths. Is there any advantage to repeating an exercise i.e. the tailor pose at both the beginning and the end of my stretch session as this where I'm trying to make the most progress?

Thanks.

Murray

[Kit_L]

Murray (and thanks for using your real name here; I appreciate it): you wrote:

How long should a stretch session be?

That's like the question "how long is a piece of string?"

How about I ask you some questions in return:

1. How much is your current flexibility limiting your progress? If not at all, then you are doing enough. If otherwise, factor that in to how you prioritise your different activities.

2. Is your flexibility improving? If not, and you need more, factor that in.

There are advantages to repeating poses, but in my experience (but in saying this, I am talking about my body), repeating them is best done sequentially, not separately as you suggest. For SS (Side Splits) I need 6-8 tries, one after the other.

Doing your legs/hips after leg day is perfect—but are you keeping all possible heat in the body immediately after the F. training?

And final holding time: numbers are simply not important, and 10 breaths not necessarily better than 5 (or 15); it's all about can I relax completely in the end position?

And as for how much time you spend, your answers to the two questions above are what counts.

[mtruelove]

Thanks Kit for the enlightening reply. I've hit some road blocks in my strength training due to a lack of flexibility.

I am making progress with my flexibility but I've still got such a long way to go, so I want to be sure that I'm applying myself in the best possible way.

Regarding repeating poses how do I know when I've done enough repetitions, when CR no longer improves my ROM?

Following your instructions I always wear two layers thermals + jogging bottoms.

The past couple of sessions I've really been focusing on relaxing so I'm glad that I've been on the right course with this. I really look forward to the daily 5 now as a time to just chill.

Thanks again.

I'm really looking forward to your visit to London and the courses you've got planned for release.

Murray

[Kate Abernethy]

Hi Murray,

I'm hoping to go to the London seminar too :-)

May I ask what make of thermals you are using? Are they 'proper' winter thermals or sports leggings? With three layers, you must be getting very toasty!

Kit,

Is there too much of a good thing by wearing thermal bottoms all day? I'm wondering about varicose veins getting worse :-(

[thecolin]

Hi Murray,

I'm hoping to go to the London seminar too :-)

How about the Piacenza workshop?

[mtruelove]

Hi Kate,

I wear Oxylane thermals (got them in the ski section at Decathalon) under a pair of jogging bottoms so it's only the two layers.

Murray

[Kate Abernethy]

Murray, thanks for that. I misread your original sentence, doh.

Colin, Italy would be lovely but London more likely.

[Richard Hamilton]

Hey Murray, I find about 60-90mins does the job for me which includes a warmup with a few mobility elements and the daily 5. I focus on upper or lower body (whole body takes too long) and find that the lower body sessions take longer. Some of the stretches I repeat but I use different methods. I may do a weighted pike but I'll do Kit's lunge hamstring stretch after or I'll do the chair piriformis and then the one using the table for assistance. I tend to not to count the C-R cycles either, I just keep going until I have nothing left to gain that day and try to relax in that position. Despite not counting I've set a stopwatch a few times out of curiosity and find that I hold most of my stretches between 1 and 3 minutes. I also find that I'm so relaxed at the end of the session I usually want to go to sleep on the carpet rather than get up and do much! If you're making progress in 30mins then you're doing it right.

I know what you mean about making slow progress with the Foundation/strength work. I've found some of the progressions less than ideal for me and have cherry picked the ones that seem to be most beneficial for me, such as doing Cossack squats rather than deck squats. Hitting a roadblock and repeating that element over and over again with little progress I find difficult, there has to be a way around it using other methods and while the F & H courses are amazing for someone who's body is in balance, they are less than ideal for me as my hips and shoulders are so out of whack. I know the progressions are designed to build up the mobility in time but the system is too linear for me to make meaningful progress just yet.

As for your tailor pose at the start and the end of your session... I read in Pavel's book 'Relax Into Stretch' that the groin/legs apart stretches are best done after stretching the hip flexors, perhaps this is why the lessons in S&F are structured the way they are? I'm sure Kit can shed some light on why this is? Maybe you could just do two sets at the end? I find I can stay in that position for quite a while and will sit in the tailor pose for at least 5 minutes to get the most out of it. I also start by sitting on two yoga blocks and remove one of them half way through.

Oh, and if you're ever down in Bournemouth give me a shout, I start training as a sports massage therapist in 3 weeks and need people to practice on!

[thecolin]

My sessions usually last 30-40 minutes, but I've changed my focus a bit recently.

Instead of doing whole lower body session, or a whole upper body session, I'm trying to really focus in on my weak points and work through specific points of tension that I've discovered.

I do wrist, neck and jaw work after upper body foundation on Monday. Tuesday is some light piriformis work, and lots of calve stretches after Foundation lower body work. Thursday is shoulders (I'm still trying to sort out where my inhibition is there). And Friday is hips.

Previously I did more general work, trying to cover all the stretches. Now I'm really trying to zero in and work on specific inhibition from various angles. It's a somewhat new approach I'm taking, and I don't know how 'valid' it is, but I'm working on it.

Colin, Italy would be lovely but London more likely.

Think about it, the Piacenza workshop is going to be the one to be at for (aspiring! ) adult gymnasts.

[mtruelove]

Thanks Richard for the detailed reply. I'm still diligent in my F workouts but resigned to the fact that until my mobility catches up progress will never be swift - in light off this I'm looking to fix all the imbalances I've always been plagued with. In a way I'm enjoying stretching more than strength training.

I'll take you up on the sports massage if I'm ever down your way. I feel incredible after a session on my rumble roller.

[Tbushnel]

Kit,

I seem to recall reading in your literature that you have found "stretching", as opposed to limbering or mobility work, seemed to work best several times per week and that clients that did stretching more frequently than this made less progress. Based on your comment above it would seem that lack of progress may require more frequent stretching. If I already stretch 2x /week and have not had progress how best to decide how much to increase the stretching? Can you use muscle soreness as a guide? By that I mean if following a stretching session you are sore, continue limbering and mobility work and when soreness mostly resolves then do another session of stretching?

thank you.

ted.

[Kit_L]

This is turning into a real discussion; I am so pleased. Let me comment one by one.

Richard wrote:

while the F & H courses are amazing for someone who's body is in balance, they are less than ideal for me as my hips and shoulders are so out of whack

If you work with as many athletes as I do, you soon realise this is normal. So, if we are intelligent, we ​begin there. This is one of the major drawbacks of program-based approaches. Very few people do not have the kinds of problems everyone talks about here. It's the 'elephant in the room'. We start by saying, "let's take a look at that elephant" and move on from there. Much faster results in the long run and muck lower chance of injury.

Colin wrote:

Now I'm really trying to zero in and work on specific inhibition from various angles.

This is exactly what I am talking about,

Ted (thanks for using your name; I much prefer this) wrote:

If I already stretch 2x /week and have not had progress how best to decide how much to increase the stretching? Can you use muscle soreness as a guide?

The key word is intensity. More of the same will have zero effect. If the intensity you are using now is not changing the body, contract harder, and hold longer/deeper.

If/when you can come to a workshop with me or Liv, you will experience/feel exactly what I mean. Do I am mean that you should stretch hard all the time? Definitely not. But you will need to stretch intensely, very intensely, occasionally. Using muscle soreness as your guide is perfect. If you do have an intense stretching session where (for example) you hang around in a modified front splits for five minutes or so, you'll definitely be sore for many days afterwards and you won't feel like stretching those muscles again while you feel this way—so at subsequent stretching session work a different part of the body, as Colin is doing.

If you want to become flexible, forget the programming approach: you need to tune into what your body needs and only by exposing yourself to different challenges and timings will you know what that is, and you will know it intimately.

[Tbushnel]

thank you for the detailed reply.I am eyeing the Bellingham WA seminar as I live in Seattle. I am particularly interested in improving my gymnastic strength and skills training. Would the Bellingham seminar be good for this or should I wait for one of your gymnastic strength specific seminars?

Ted.

[Tris]

Hi Murray,

My harder stretching sessions (1-2x/week) are about half an hour, too, with good results. (This is on top of daily limbering first thing in the morning, and Sommer's foundation/hanstand mobility program 4x/week.)

At the moment this harder session is four stretches (hip flexor, standing side split, standing bar gastrocnemius and bent leg hamstring). Generally 3 C-Rs per movement per side. Although this is probably just 20 mins of actual stretching and 10 mins hobbling around enjoying my nervous system's confusion.

But similar to Kit, the 20-30 minutes is an observation - not a program. This routine is new (3 weeks), but I'll monitor how I feel, how my ROM is a few days later, and adjust as necessary - generally doing as little as possible to get a good result.

[mtruelove]

Thanks Wheezer. I had a really good stretch session last night, definitely feeling it this morning.

I'm completely stuck on the manna progression at the moment unable to perform even a single straddle up.

If I've found a weakness it's not only my leg flexibility but also strength, I'm having to do assisted Cossack squats at the moment, I hope as my strength improves with these my flexibility will too.

[Richard Hamilton]

I'm trying to really focus in on my weak points and work through specific points of tension that I've discovered.

That'll be my whole body then

[Jennifer]

Although this is probably just 20 mins of actual stretching and 10 mins hobbling around enjoying my nervous system's confusion.

I'm so glad you said this. I was wondering if something was wrong with me. I've been doing my hard stretching days right before bed because pretty much after that my whole body just feels.....nervy.... for lack of a better word.

[Zach_A]

I'm completely stuck on the manna progression at the moment unable to perform even a single straddle up.

Haha join the club! I think the general consensus around here is that flexibility is the limiting factor in this movement, as opposed to strength.

I do a minimum 30 minute stretch session 6 days a week directly following my strength training. I was doing Foundation 1 either 2 or 4 times a week depending on which week I was on in terms of volume, and would stretch after those sessions, but that turned into a 3.5 hour ordeal each time.

So, I split up my Foundation 1 work quite a bit so that I now train 6 days a week with a stretching session after my strength training. Now I'm only spending around 30 minutes at most on 2-3 Foundation movements each day along with the stretch session at the end. This significantly shortens my workouts which is working out nicely for me.

I have 3 different areas I focus on for the stretching sessions, so each area gets done twice a week since I train 6 days a week.

Sorry if I made this sound confusing!

[Kit_L]

Ted wrote:

Would the Bellingham seminar be good for this or should I wait for one of your gymnastic strength specific seminars?

The Bellingham three-dayer would be fantastic for you (one more day than the ST for GST workshop, too). We are negotiating a number of ST for GST workshops, but are waiting for confirmation for a NY venue.

If you can't get to an ST for GST workshop, then the Bellingham one will be an excellent alternative, and I can show you some of the GST-specific techniques, too. If you think about it, a GST-oriented body is still a body—and there are only do many ways of working it.

As well, by then the programs will be out, so once you have had personal tuition in any of the comprising elements, then it's just work, and time.

@ mtruelove: the key is a combination of being able to access the HF and TFL strength in their maximally contracted end ROM ​and having enough ROM in the opposing groups (inner Hams, and adductors). The stretches you probably know, but emphasise the reaching aspects of all of them.

And the legs-apart standing versions allow this much easier than the sitting ones if you are really tight. By this I mean that if you can't sit in a decent straddle position, you are wasting your time trying to do a straddle-up. Concentrate on the standing legs-apart stretch and use your groin muscles to try to pull your hear and shoulders towards the floor.

There's more, but without filming these, it's a bit hard to get the picture across. We start shooting very soon.

[mtruelove]

Kit, thanks again. I've stopped doing the straddle ups (what's the point when I can't even do one) and instead working on strengthening myself at increased ranges of motion. So I'm mostly doing standing leg extensions,I get a lot of cramp in my quad (it's trying to override the hamstring?) But most of my effort is going into stretching. The hamstring stretch video from your YouTube channel is amazing and for the first time I'm seeing progress.

[Kit_L]

mtruelove wrote:

I get a lot of cramp in my quad (it's trying to override the hamstring?)

Precisely (and, and this is not a trivial detail) the HFs and quads are working in their maximally shortened ROM which almost guarantees cramping (try pointing your toes as you read this!). Just how the body works, and it will adapt.

And as you get looser in the hamstr. then the quads/HFs don't have to work as hard.

[thecolin]

And as you get looser in the hamstr. then the quads/HFs don't have to work as hard.

So what does it mean if I don't cramp? Would that be a good thing then? And despite what I think is intense stretching, I don't get the soreness you talk about.

I'm working on hanging leg extensions paired with a standing weighted pike hang for 30 seconds between sets.

Basically I hang from a stall bar, bring my knees tightly to my chest while pressing my lower back to the bars, and extend my legs straight while keeping my knees/legs as high as possible. Last week I did this for 5x6. In between I do a thirty second weighted pike hang with 43kg (about 60% of bodyweight), knees locked with my wrists below my feet. I get deep enough into the stretch that I start to feel the stretch primarily in my hips once my hamstrings are fully warmed up and stretched out. I do this twice a week. And the intensity is somewhere in the range of "dear god please let me stop now before I die", though the stretch is always manageable, never painful..

In addition, I do deep hip stretching once a week. Such as the floor P. stretch, tailor pose with a (currently 8-9 cm) wedge between my feet (knees on the ground) and long, deep modified SS.

After my workout with stretching my hips feel quite sore, but the feeling fades quite quickly. Could I be stretching in a ROM that I simply don't reach in the normal day to day so I don't feel soreness when I move around?

The one place where I have cramping and a tiny bit of soreness after stretching is my calves. My problem (left) calf cramps a bit during headstands with full leg extensions. And after my calf stretching sessions, I can feel a very slight soreness, but nothing overly significant.

I don't think I'm a lacking intensity, could I be stretching more for better results though?

[Kit_L]

Colin, some people just don't get DOMS (added this to the acronym list, too). I always do.

Comments on what you are doing: I think you need more than 30" in the weighted pike; 2' is more realistic. Forget the timing aspect and go with is exercise until you feel the body really relax; this can take a little while. The intensity sounds fine, and I often use a lot less. It depends on how the body is feeling.

May I make a suggestion on your hanging LEs? Try holding one knee to the chest (I am not strong enough to hold both knees to the chest in this position, personally, BTW; this is one of my worst ROMS and why I am working on the wall squats with knees together). Extend only one leg, keeping it as high above horizontal as you can. This will activate the HFs strongly and will change the feeling (and hence the pattern). Try this for two sets (and do a loose floor lunge to stretch them out between sets) then try the two-legged LE and see if you can hold the legs higher.

Olivia has some standing drills that will help this too; these will be part of the Mastering series. More on this later, but in the meantime, try this and report back please.

[thecolin]

I'll try that.

Would I do this hanging and focus on pressing the lower back into the bars (something I've played with, I'm not sure if it's a good cue) with the non working leg pointing down? Or just standing on the ground?

DOMs never seem to be an issue for me. I moved a literal metric ton (at least) of dirt down two flights of stairs for some spring gardening today. It wore me out, but all I can feel is a very slight soreness in my chest. If only it translated into some incredible recovery capacity to build strength and remold my body!

Another thought is that I have a physical job, so maybe the constant movement through out the day helps keep the soreness away?

A random side note, one thing I've been playing with for the weighted pike stretch is using straps, like the one's weight lifters use for deadlifting. I've found that when my grip starts to wear out, I loose focus on my hips and legs. But with the straps I can get a really deep stretch without worrying about my forearms. I then read what you were saying about how the body can only focus on one strong stretch sensation at a time, which seems to be the case for me with this stretch.

[Tris]

my whole body just feels.....nervy.... for lack of a better word.

Know exactly what you mean.