Standing Side Stretch, Pain Behind Knee

[Tris]

Hi all,

I intend to achieve a side split/pancake. I am a beginning stretcher with legs and have a long road to loosen tight hamstring, gracilis and adductors.

I have started by standing in a side split (similar to

) without hand support so that adductor contraction is built-in to the hold.

However, before I get low enough for a solid adductor stretch, I feel an intense pain in the back of the knee on the medial side. It might be the semimembranosus but I'm not sure (it's at least in that area). I'd be surprised if it's a tight soleus, as I think the soleus is the loosest link in my posterior chain (when toe touching, I feel lower back and hamstring much more than calf area).

What could the cause be, and how can I make the pain stop?

[bipocni]

Not entirely sure it's the same, but I've felt some lateral knee pain on the outside of my leg during side splits. It's got me wondering if I'm not activating the right muscles during the stretch. I figured it was a passive stretch, so I shouldn't be activating any, but I'm guessing I was wrong in this assumption.

How close to the floor are you?

[Admin]

@ weezer: Go easier in the beginning; use supports that can deform under your glutes (so, will be taking some of your body's weight), and go easier so these muscles are not over-taxed until they are strong enough. Definitely not soleus; likely gracilis/semimembranosus, or the associated fascia.

@bipocni: tighten the kneecaps (flex the quads) and see how that feels—you need to keep them switched on to protect the knees.

To both of you: knees are important, so don't ignore these signs (remember the old joke: pain is nature's way of telling you to slow down!).

[Tris]

Thanks Liv.

What could I use as a support?

I could also spend some time straddled just narrow of the point the knee flares up - intention being to build the tissue supporting the movement. Maybe a few sets of 60 second holds 2-3 times a week.

My adductors will be happy to work on the tailor pose until the knees are ready for the standing straddle. They'll benefit greatly with getting knees to the floor.

[Kit_L]

Kit answered; not Liv.

Bolsters are the best support for SS. The support must be able to deform, while supporting some weight.

The major difference between the tailor pose and the straight-leg legs apart poses are that in the latter gracilis and the inner hamstrings are stretched but not in the former (because the knee is bent). This is where the fascial releases come in: most commonly, if you do not have this range of movement actively available to you, gracilis and the inner hamstrings are actually stuck together (it's actually the fascia sleeves that are stuck together, not the muscles).

[Tris]

Thanks Kit, I didn't realize you used Admin (all good).

I may need a bolster and a stool for a short time. Also I am finding that leaning forward at the hips and putting fist on the ground gives me great control over the weight distribution.

[Kit_L]

I have a T-shirt with the legend "I am root" (it's a real geek gag). I am Admin and Kit_L.

Wheezer wrote

Also I am finding that leaning forward at the hips and putting fist on the ground gives me great control over the weight distribution.

That's what we teach it this way: the feeling of security/control is a major fraction of the behind-the-scenes neurophysiology that actually achieves the effects we experience as "becoming more flexible".

[Tris]

*Gasp!* I love Linux jokes! Especially this one.

[Kit_L]

THIS is what that link takes me to; is there another way of showing me?

[thanners]

I assume he was referring to this xkcd comic.

Regarding the stretching with support - I take it these are just ways to enable us to get a good stretch in the first place, and more easily gain access to new ROM that our body would otherwise balk at. And then the (eventual) goal would be to do such things as holding it without support from the hands, to really control that ROM?

Hmm. I'm having issues wrestling with the forum's formatting today. Hopefully this comes out okay.

[Tris]

I assume he was referring to this xkcd comic.

Yep.

[Kit_L]

I love that comic; and I had forgotten the URL to its home page too, so thanks for that.

Re. Adam's comment re. the board's formatting:

First, the formatting on this particular board's software just sucks, but we looked at all of them before settling on IPB; it's industrial strength plus our IT guru runs the 'cool runnings' multi-forum site, and knows it deeply. My problem with this software (apart from its counter-intuitiveness) is that I can't set my preferred font and size as a preference, that fact that the cursor jumps 15 or 20 spaces backwards suddenly if you use the delete key after having inserted either italic or bold (grrrrr), and that, sometimes, it simply will not let you link to a perfectly formed URL. When I inserted the links to the recent relaxation recordings, the software inserted some just fine, and completely fucked up others, with zero difference in the form of them. It took hours, literally, to sort those out. So, main point is it's the software, not you!

thanners wrote:

Regarding the stretching with support - I take it these are just ways to enable us to get a good stretch in the first place, and more easily gain access to new ROM that our body would otherwise balk at. And then the (eventual) goal would be to do such things as holding it without support from the hands, to really control that ROM?

That's it exactly. Fear and the actual experience of massive pain/discomfort is what stops people stretching. Once that protective mechanism is re-calibrated, the experience itself changes.

And we will be talking lots about controlling ROM in the new programs: this control is key. Emphasise ROM first, then emphasise controlling that ROM works for most people, but not all: both Craig and I do it the other way around: we get the ROM from controlling the strength aspect. If I were asked, I would say this is a major difference between men and women. The key is that you have to find how your own body prefers to negotiate this "unknown territory". It's not written down anywhere.

[Tris]

This mysterious pain is persisting, and I don't think it's a weight-bearing issue.

I have been working the standing side split 2x week since OP. However, the knee is stopping me getting the ROM to feel it in gracilis/adductors. I consistently get a sharp pain in the semimembranosus area, but only in the inch just above the knee joint. Considering the pain is so local, I wonder if it's a fascia-lock situation?

The pain is consistent whether I support most of my bodyweight on hands, if I lie on my back and have legs up against the wall, or at any point of the C-R process. It seems like the issue is triggered by positioning, not so much contraction of muscles.

Is there some specific rehab I could do for the prob opportunity area?

[AndeL]

Hey Wheezer, have you had gracilis released?

prob opportunity area?

I like how you put this

[thecolin]

How are you doing on the tailor pose? Are you able to bring your knees to the floor?

I've had a similar pain in my left leg/knee, and the tailor pose has been very helpful. Once I was able to bring my knees to the floor with my feet in tight, I started to wedge my feet apart and work my way to the floor again and just go ahead like that. Stretch, wedge, stretch wedge... rinse and repeat. It's allowed me to stretch out that area in a gradual, controlled way. Whereas the standing side split you posted earlier felt too uncontrolled for me at this point.

I found a stack of old paper coasters which works perfectly for wedging my feet apart. I can add a tiny amount at a time so I can progress as gradually as I need.

[Tris]

I have dug around the gracilis many times with fingers, but have never had it released.

I love both the tailor pose and standing side split. My goal is to get into a straddle actively, so I do want to address the entire inner-leg as a chain.

[AndeL]

I need some practice with that gracilis release technique, if you are interested, let's meet up (check FB). Probably a few others from the workshops could help if it's too far. You probably can't do it yourself, I couldn't - I think it is a mind/body thing.

Don't worry, you will be under care of a GP & she did it to me quite masterfully.

[thecolin]

I love both the tailor pose and standing side split. My goal is to get into a straddle actively, so I do want to address the entire inner-leg as a chain.

Of course, that's what I'm working towards as well. I've just found it more productive to try and pick it apart with partial poses. I'm at a point where I think I'll start working the whole chain together. But before, the sensations in my left leg held me back so I didn't want to do those poses at all until I had dealt directly with the pain response since (for me) it made those big stretches kind of pointless.

I need some practice with that gracilis release technique, if you are interested

I'm interested! Let me know when you can get to Italy!

[Richard Hamilton]

I get a similar issue and find that legs apart straight leg stretches aggravate it. If I overdo it I find pes anserinus where the muscles insert gets inflammed. Stiff legged windmills and the standing side split definitely cause this to flare up. For now I'm focusing on the bent leg hamstring stretch and tailor pose and hope that these two will loosen me up sufficiently to give the standing side split a decent crack. One thing I've found that helps is sitting on a table with a lacrosse ball under the hamstrings and adductors nice and close to the knee. You can let the ball sink in and the discomfort may start to dissipate. Play with side to side motions to create a pressure wave through the area or try small circular motions. You can also flex and extend the knee which is quite good as well. once you've done that you can move the ball further up and repeat.

Whenever I do this I get some really weird sensations in my lower leg which feels like tibialis anterior though I think it's actually the muscles of the deep posterior compartment as the deep front fascial line continues down through here. This may also be worth having a crack at massaging as well and you can get to some of it by exploring the area between the tibia and achilles up to where soleus starts to spread around the calf

[Tris]

I need some practice with that gracilis release technique, if you are interested, let's meet up (check FB).

That would be great! Messaging you back now.

[AndeL]

Nice, this should be fun.

What about working through what we can of the pancake sample plan

I just ran through what I could of it and seems not too bad

Any other ideas welcome...

[Kit_L]

Stay tuned: we start shooting the Mastery series this Thursday.

Work on that plan in the meantime, and don't stretch hard too often. doing so is the #1 cause of slow progress. Stretch intensely and relatively infrequently for best results (one hard stretch every 4-6 days seems optimal).