rotator cuff trouble and stretching surrounding muscles help

[tomdelongste]

Hello. I am new here after seeing some of Kits videos on Youtube I thought I would sign up and see if I can get any advice with some rotator cuff trouble I am having. Sorry if I have posted this in the wrong place.

I am 21 and have been lifting weights for a couple of years now. My shoulders are always clicking and whatnot although for the most part they are not usually painful. recently after performing exercises such as bench pressing and lateral raises I would get a pain deep in my shoulder when releasing the weight or when picking something up afterwards, this could be something very light, for example a set of lateral raises with dumbbells and then picking up my water bottle whilst I walked to the next piece of equipment in the gym. Just holding the bottle, even if it was empty, was causing a really weird pain. I also started getting pain in the area where the trapezius muscle joins on to the bone near the shoulder, maybe deeper then the traps but that general area.

I also started getting pain in the front deltoid after chest training sessions. I went to physio and he said it is my rotator cuff muscles, gave me an exercise to strengthen them, an external rotation exercise however it took a fair bit of work to see the positioning I could perform these at without clicking and popping in the shoulder. So I would say at the moment its a fairly limited range of motion and instead of having my arm straight to the side I have it slightly forward 15 degrees lets say, as this seems to stop more of the clicking. I am using a 5kg dumbbell to perform these. The exercise is not always uncomfortable unless I let my forearm come down to the point where it is parallel to the floor. For some reason this causes a little pain in the front deltoid head (or thats where it feels like anyway) as I pull/rotate the weight back up from that very bottom position. The physio said he is hoping it is not a tear but he is not sure. However I am hoping it would be more painful and obvious if it was.

Basically I was wondering if any specific muscles in the area need loosening in the area that might help. I know a lot of my muscles are very tight as various physio's have pointed this out to me. I am currently trying to foam roll and stretch my pec minor on a daily basis but I am not sure if this is a contributing muscle as I am not an expert. I saw Kits video on chest stretching with a partner, I tried this yesterday but having my arms pulled behind me in this way almost pushed my traps forward in a sense which causes a little bit of the sensation I mentioned earlier on the bone above the shoulder.

Also whilst I am on the subject or rotator cuff exercises, Should I be trying to keep my shoulder blades pinned flat to my ribcage or just let it be natural - my shoulder blades stick out a little although I think this is mainly due to pec minor tightness.

I will leave it at that for the moment before I babble on anymore, hopefully some of the above made sense but I was just hoping someone could help me on the matter. Please let me know if there is other info I can provide if it will help

Thanks

Ste

[tomdelongste]

Another thing before I forget to mention it as I think it is related. I often feel very tight in what I think is my trapezius, again in the upper section where it joins to the shoulder bone, this is usually okay after a little while but when I first get up on a morning feels really tight. Thanks

[Kit_L]

I am surprised that no one else has jumped in here yet. From what you describe I would bet the cost of a consultation (without even meeting you) that you are just extremely tight in all planes of movement of the shoulder girdle, which is absolutely typical of bodybuilders who have not done compensatory mobilisation or stretching exercises.

My suggestion to you is to get a copy of Overcome neck & back pain and explore all of the seven or eight shoulder mobilisation and stretching exercises that will be found there. I don't want this advice to sound like a naked plug for my products but the fact is shoulder mobilisation is not well understood in the bodybuilding world yet. There are a few exceptions on sites like T-Nation where many excellent contributors make practical suggestions, but still the focus is on building as much mass and size as possible.

Your description of the relaxed position of your arm is absolutely typical of a bodybuilder with both very tight biceps and tight pec. minor, as you noted. And the tension that you describe in your upper traps (and probably levator scapulae) is very common in our modern world and in your case is the combination of computer work plus bodybuilding, probably.

I see that you have tried the stick stretch already but if you are feeling that sensation in trapezius I guarantee that your shoulders are not in the right position (that is, back and down on the rib cage).

Physiotherapists often recommend doing rotator cuff exercises whenever shoulder pain is present. My perspective is that this advice is usually too general to be helpful. In my experience, internal rotator cuff strength is often vastly greater than external rotator cuff strength and, as the majority of the shoulder stability is derived from the combined force couples of these four muscles, the humerus can be pulled forward in the glenohumeral joint when under load and that can cause joint capsule pain. One possible solution is to strengthen the external rotator cuff couple (that is infraspinatus and teres minor. Avoid the strengthening exercises that are done with the upper out to the side, parallel to the floor; instead use the external rotator cuff exercises with the working arm's elbow pressed onto your ribs; I will have to video this because the description is too complex to get easily via words alone.

The short perspective is that this problem cannot be diagnosed without watching you work and seeing what your movements and flexibility are like. Having said that, it is a good bet that improving your shoulder girdle mobility and the mobility of of biceps brachii is very likely to provide you with some, and perhaps complete, relief.

Another way to help would be to video yourself trying to do some of these things and post that video on YouTube and make it a private link so only we can see it.

[tomdelongste]

Thanks for that great reply Kit. I will take a look at a copy of the product you suggested. Will this include what you said about bicep mobility or is this specific back issues?

I think I know which external rotator cuff exercise you mean to perform. If I am thinking of the correct one where you lay on your side - I can do this one with much less clicking than the other mentioned exercise. However I have to use a much lighter weight for it (not sure if that means anything?) One problem I do have with this exercise is when I try to keep my shoulder blade down and pressed against the ribs, I flare my lat muscles too, unintentionally but it seems to be the only way I can do this. So if i was to try and keep my shoulder blades pressed down my lats would almost stop my from pressing my elbow to my ribcage and leaves quite a gap.

I am more then happy to make any videos that will help at all. However I am not sure what to actually record? as you will probably not be able to tell in the video where the clicking is. But if you have any suggestions of anything to record, even if its just certain stretches so you can see if I am too inflexible in certain stretches, please do let me know and I will get right on it!

[tomdelongste]

Just had a quick look at the product. I forgot to mention I am from the UK, do you ship to the UK?

Also thought I would let you know I was at the doctors a few days ago and I am on a waiting list for an MRI, I thought whilst I can get one I had best get one whilst I am trying to solve this issue just to be on the safe side. Might be a long time before I actually get one though!

[Perspari]

tldr

Buy Kit's Book - do the Stretch's. The stick mobility/rotator cuff things amazing but go really really gently.

http://www.t-nation....r_savers_part_i

http://www.dieselcre...-shoulder-rehab

If nothing helps the joint clicking I went to a Scenar Therapist, kind of like a TENS machine (electrotherapy) and in 2 sessions I had 90% of my clicking gone. I was told it was my rear deltoid and part of the lat was keeping my shoulder in a awkward position / basically too much stuff was too tight and this released it. I'm sure this can be done purely with stretching but this was before I knew about Kit's book so just my 2cents

Get a Physio who's really experienced in shoulders and be 100% sure about exactly whats going on, even if this means seeing multiple physio's.

Anyway Good luck! Emailed you but not sure if you got it?

[tomdelongste]

A lot of info there! Do you think you will get it fixed properly? I have read a lot of the shoulder articles on T nation, some are fantastic, however I feel most are most beneficial in prevention of injuries and not necessarily getting rid of ones you already have. I have found the book that was suggested near where i am from (Kits book) however it is without the DVD, i eill still get it today anyway.

Like you said, my lats are also tight as hell so it could be something similar? who knows.

I will wait until Kit replies from the last message and post back from there, also I will let you guys know when I have the book today and have a read through thanks for your help so far and for taking the time for detailed answers.

[tomdelongste]

Yeah I have watched that video before, it's very helpful however the stretch 40 seconds in which I believe is for the external muscles stretch? I can not do that stretch very well, I am not entirely sure why but I just find it really difficult to get into the correct position.

I got the email, just checking it now thanks. Also managed to get Kits book! I have read through the shoulder stretches and am now starting from the beginning to read all the info. Really shocked about only stretching 2-3 times a week but I will give that a go, One thing I am unsure about though, should I be stretching any more then this if I am training more. i.e a routine that has a full body workout monday wednesday and friday, Would I be best stretching after each of these or not bother taking this into account and just stretch every third day?

I booked in for an MRI but I have spoke to my physio since then and he said I would be better with an MR athrogram ( I think thats what its called) so I will be ringing the doctors today to see if i can get it changed. Fingers crossed I wont need one anyway!

[tomdelongste]

alright so I have just finished my first stretching session from the book - the shoulder section. I was actually pretty tired by the end of it! tried to get it pretty spot on. One thing I did notice is when I do the pec major and bicep stretch against the wall I get a pain in the back of my elbow,around the area the forearm flexers join. I am not sure if this is nerve or muscle pain but when my arm is pressed flat against the wall (extended position) is almost feels like its crushing a nerve. Does anyone have any suggestions about this?

Another note the exercise 43 the combination shoulder stretches. I can get basically no where with this, which in a sense I am hoping shows that tight muscles are the problem. When i get in position, have my arm held and pulled behind my back, the next step is to pull the shoulder blade back, this is insanely tight and the first time I attempted this I performed it too fast and it clicked like crazy! I am hoping this means this is just an exercise I need to work most on and if anything is showing what the problem areas are. Just thought I would update you guys but if you have anything to add from there please do let me know.

Thanks

[tomdelongste]

Hello again sorry to bump the thread I just wondered if anyone had any more to add yet? Also I wanted to do a quick update on things.. I have had an MRI scan on the shoulder capsule and should get the results back over the next week I hope. I have been back to my physio and he recommended that I stop these stretches. He has said I have a few other things like my rib cage sticks out slightly on the left side which causes a few slight position problems which the stretches might not do much good for? he has given me a breathing exercise that I believe contracts the obliques and maybe the abs too. Apparently my rib cage does this because I hyper extend my back for most things and he has me actually arching my back when performing these exercises. Anyway I wasn't really sure what to do in the position I am in right now and my shoulder is getting pretty bad so if anyone could get back to me on this with an opinion that would be amazing thanks guys!

[Admin]

What you describe in your last post is classic tight lats (which you know about already). Up to you as to whether you take the physio's advice—in my experience, you cannot follow more than one path at a time. If the physio's advice works, you're golden, but if it does not, come back here.

I recommend getting the DVD update for that book, too; and use any exercises that are on it, rather than the ones in the book (I decided to update that book via DVD rather than re-write it). Most of the rotator cuff exercises are on YT, too.

We do ship to the UK and the postage on DVDs is small.

re.

Another note the exercise 43 the combination shoulder stretches.

Don't even attempt this one before master all the others—trying to get into a position that you are not ready for can be dangerous (at least painful!).

Where do you live in the UK—we have two well-trained teachers in York.

[tomdelongste]

I had a voicemail from the doctor this morning with my MRI results he said ' everything is normal' that was the full message, not very detailed I know but I am hoping that means no tears or anything then. How much is the DVD and shipping to the uk?

Yeah I had a feeling the two opinions would clash so it's just a case of picking one for the moment I suppose.I live in Leeds which is not far from York.

I can understand why tight muscles would cause a lot of these problems so I could always ask what my physios logic is against this. I am not sure if he was saying about my flaring ribs been the case but I will have to check.

Either way my right shoulder is pretty annoying at the moment, when I mix a drink in my shaker i get a little sharp pain if I shake it in a similar motion to that of an L flye/RC exercise. obviously I will avoid this now but thought I will keep posting up little things like that that I notice just in case it helps with giving info etc...

Would these teachers in York be able to make a diagnosis in terms of settling whether to go with Kit or my physio? as silly as that sounds

Thanks again, really appreciate all the help guys

[tomdelongste]

latest update...

I have just spoken to my physio, he was not convinced with the MRI results and wants me to get another scan, the one where they inject a dye in to the shoulder and then scan it, i forget the name, however I am not sure they will just let me have a scan like that but we will see. He also keeps mentioning he wants me to get the scan for SLAP test or something, not entirely sure what that is though. I questioned him about why he did not feel stretching was a good idea as I do want to get stretching see if it helps, he said I will end up stretching the shoulder capsule and making it unstable. What is your opinion on this please?

Also when I last showed him the internal RC stretch he told me I will damage my bicep performing that stretch? just wanted to see what you guys thought as my shoulder is getting really bad now and I am not really sure what I should be doing, thanks again

[tomdelongste]

I have decided to try the stretches so I will be back keep you guys updated on progress, one thing I wanted to ask about is the pain I get when I perform any stretch like the one you do here Kit -

have also tried to stretch my biceps out behind me on a TRX system where I would lean forward. Very similar to that chest stretch you perform in the video, again though it feels like it push's my upper traps forward and causes pain. Does anyone have any suggestions about this?

Thanks

Ste