Question about Elephant walk / hamstring stretches and flexion (lower) back

[Micky]

Hello all,

I have a question about the elephant walk, and Kit asked me to put it on the forum because it can be interested for others too. So, here it is…

 

When you show the elephant walk in the back course, I think you are flexing your lower back, but I am not sure of this. I always did the elephant walk with a STRAIGHT back, so all the stretch comes into my legs and not my lower back.
Why do I do that? Different reasons: 2 times very severe herniated discs ( L4-L5) in the past, radiculopathy (ischias) as a left over of hernia’s ( very little now), 30 years of back pain. Since 2 years 90% pain free.

Too much flexion is contra- indicated by a lot of experts, discs are compressing with too much flexion.  Besides contra-indication, it does not feel good in my body, a bit pain. I know that you are supporting the upper body with the arms, so there is no weight on the back . But I still think that it is better for me to do the elephant walk,and any other hamstring stretches, with a straight back. I want to stretch my hamstrings, not the lower back.

 

I support my flexing of the spine always with brazing, using the TVA. Also for example with cat stretch. I am pilates teacher, but I don’t do and teach the extreme flexion in the lower back. Got my last hernia after doing my pilates education around 8 years ago. When I did yoga in the past: absolutely horrible for my back! Aggravates my back pain.

 

Some more information because I think it is important to know related to this question: I spent the last 6 years solving my back pain by leaving my original work as a photographer, because carrying heavy equipment and working a lot behind the computer, caused probably partly the hernia’s. Besides that, I solved my back pain with exercising, information, teaching pilates and I am also mindfulness teacher for chronic pain.  I know the brain plays a big role in pain. Also know that MRI’s don’t proof anything. My experience is that every back , or lower back , is so different, so I can imagine that keeping my lower back straight is good for me. Love to hear your opinion.

take care, Micky

[Kit_L]

30 minutes ago, Micky said:

I think you are flexing your lower back

I am. But this is not an "all or nothing" thing: the degree of allowing flexion in the lumbar spine while doing this exercise is completely and safely controllable. If only to stretch the involved fascia, some flexion capacity is good. In this exercise, you are in full control of the degree of flexion you play with. 

33 minutes ago, Micky said:

Too much flexion is contra- indicated by a lot of experts

Yes, and you can find other experts who disagree with this position, too.

34 minutes ago, Micky said:

I want to stretch my hamstrings, not the lower back.

If this is satisfactory for you, do the exercise the way you are doing it. But be aware that the purpose of the elephant walk is to stretch all of the posterior chain – from the neck down to the ankles – and as I mentioned above, just exactly where you're stretching and the degree of the stretching is completely controllable by a person doing the exercise.

Personally, I want all the joints in the body to be able to move so that my overall movement pattern uses the least energy, and holds the least tension. There are many reasons for this, including cultivating the state of deep relaxation while being awake. I have pathology in my spine of the sort that you talk about above, but my movement is supple and much more like a 25-year-old's than my current 70+ year-old body.

Everything in this life depends on what you want. This freedom of movement is what I wanted when I started this project. I have written about this in some detail in the book Stretching & Flexibility.

37 minutes ago, Micky said:

I support my flexing of the spine always with brazing, using the TVA.

Bracing with TVA in this exercise is completely unnecessary. This is just my personal opinion and you do it the way that feels right in your body.

On the other hand, if you want to explore a greater movement potential in your own body, then consider carefully experimenting with this exercise in the way that it is taught – no bracing, as much relaxation as you can bring to the task, and complete immersion of your awareness in the part of your body that you are working on. On the other hand, if you are happy with the state of your body currently, then doing the exercise in a way that feels safe to use also perfectly fine.

[Micky]

Thank you Kit, totally clear what you are writing. 
and yes, I want to explore a greater movement potential in my body, so I continue carefully experimenting with the elephant walk and other exercises in your stretch courses. Slowly, to see what happens. 
 

19 hours ago, Kit_L said:

Personally, I want all the joints in the body to be able to move so that my overall movement pattern uses the least energy, and holds the least tension. There are many reasons for this, including cultivating the state of deep relaxation while being awake

Yes, this is what I am looking for too. Also because I believe that part of (my) back pain is due to tension. Will experiment also with letting go of bracing. 
I am starting reading your books too. 
 

 

19 hours ago, Kit_L said:

Yes, and you can find other experts who disagree with this position, too.

Can you suggest some good experts who disagree with the ‘flexion’ theory ? Just because I am so interested in this subject for myself but also in my work as a Pilates teacher.

[Kit_L]

7 hours ago, Micky said:

Can you suggest some good experts who disagree with the ‘flexion’ theory ?

Literally all of the movement and movement therapy people, including myself. The fact is that spinal pathology is normal in the statistical sense, for anyone over the age of 30 (this was my Master's research area, as it happens). And the research also shows that extruding/extruded discs performed just as well mechanically as normal discs in terms of doing the work that they are supposed to do. One of the reasons why there's been so much focus on flexion is Stuart McGill's work, which was computer modelled and not based in reality, suggested that with respect to flexion that discs had a finite life. I do not agree with this. There are many reasons, including overnight water imbibition which, if you look it up, only happens if movement is part of your normal daily routine. All parts of the body need to be moved. 

Speaking more generally now, and I have worked with some of the best Pilates practitioners and teachers in the world, most Pilates practitioners do hold unnecessary tension. The bracing that is so beloved of the Pilates world happens automatically if your proprioceptive and mechanoreceptor systems are well tuned – and this takes movement and practise. In other words, the bracing that one needs should happen completely automatically and it will TA is active. The easiest way to make sure that it is active is to wake up the proprioceptors and mechanoreceptors in the feet and the hands, where they are most numerous. These organs, part of the fascia, are fine tuners of all motor activity. There's no point in bracing if you don't need to brace – and you will not consciously brace quickly enough in an emergency – this has to be trained into the body so that it reacts by itself. This is a fundamental part of our work and the other movement therapy people I referred to above.

And there is one more reason to cultivate flexion – all fascia is pain sensing and pain reporting, that is fascia is nociceceptive in nature. If you are not moving the fascia, and the tissues underneath the superficial facial layer, that alone can signal pain in your system. When I first studied anatomy and physiology, fascia was described as "inert ground substance". We now know that in fact all of the standard nerve endings found in muscles and skin are found in fascia as well (look up Robert Schleip and Thomas Myers, both of whom love our work).

And the old adage of use it or lose it still applies here I think. The key thing to keep in mind with someone with the background like yours is proceed with caution but (and this is a big but!) hold the lowest amount  of tension in your body as possible as you play around. That means keeping your whole tummy area soft—poke your finger in there now and it won't be!

As you're experimenting, do not anticipate that something is going to hurt. If it hurts it will, and that will pass. And if you don't anticipate it, you will not be holding that anticipatory tension that we have found is completely normal for someone who has an injury in the past and who is working on it in the present moment. What we named the "Apprehension Reflex" in the second edition of Overcome neck & back pain, and the increased resting muscle tension that this creates, is one of the main causes of re-injuring an area that you have hurt in the past. The part that you've hurt has to be re-exposed to the stress that you think created the injury but in a context where the body realises that the movement that hurt it in the past is not hurting it now. This changes everything.

Do you want a body like a cat? This is one of our mantras as well, as you probably know, and if you ever picked up a cat you will know that they are utterly and completely relaxed and their bodies drape over the support. They embody the concept of no unnecessary tension. And yet they can generate about 70% more force than a dog, for example, of the same size and weight. This applies to the whole of the cat family. That's more than enough for today!

[Micky]

Thanks, Kit. And you can write always more, very helpful and inspiring. I don’t have a lot of knowledge about of fascia (do foamrolling) and already started to read about it.

And yes, I think Pilates practioners/teachers old a lot of tension. But myself and I think most people, have totally tensed up bodies. At least in Europe! Even before I started with pilates I noticed that with myself and now I see it daily in my classes. And yes, my long history of my back pain has partly to do with tension.

On 7/20/2025 at 2:38 AM, Kit_L said:

The easiest way to make sure that it is active is to wake up the proprioceptors and mechanoreceptors in the feet and the hands, where they are most numerous.

Did not know that this has any relation to the TA!
To not make my reaction too long, I will not react to everything you write, but just letting you know that I will experiment with the things you are explaining and dive into it. It is all very clear and makes sense to me. One thing, I worked the last years a lot on, is letting go of the fear that something will hurt. Like you are writing, this is such an important point. The situation where I was in when I could not walk anymore was so unsave / threatening that even after years of training of letting go of fear, there is still some fear. 

Probably I will come back later to the forum or this post when I have read your book too.

Cats….yeah, I teach Pilates outside and at that place there are a lot of street-cats who we feed. One beautiful little black cat joins….She comes next to my students or me on a blanket. Will now have your mantra in my mind:)

Thanks Kit.

[Kit_L]

4 hours ago, Micky said:

Did not know that this has any relation to the TA!

Oh yes. The neural system connects all parts of the body to each other – and really should be a thought of as a single system with many, many parts. Waking up the proprioreceptors and mechanoreceptors in the feet changes your capacity to balance and move forever. This is why we recommend doing some barefoot work as one of the fundamental principles of the system, and also to do drills – like walking carefully on gravel – to explicitly wake them up with all of your awareness is in those parts of the body. Waking up this sensory dimension will mean that your body's own reflexes will manifest when they need to rather than you consciously bracing because you think you should. 

Principle # whatever: no unnecessary tension (which then creates the idea of necessary tension, which can be let go of immediately when no longer needed—think of doing a chin up for example).

[Micky]

Yes, I do myself a lot of barefoot walking, also in the forest ( such a nice sensation) and exercises / stretches with balls in my classes because most people forget to take care of them while they are so important for the reasons you are pointing out. But did not know about the relation with activating the TA.

next to the cat mantra, you give me another one, no unnecessary tension:)

🙏