Stuck in pancake due to missing Rotation? Any recommendations?

[Nauat]

Hey Kit, hey Olivia!
I am Andi from Germany and would like to tell you a part of my story as a backround. I hope to get some insights and would love to hear your thoughts about my story and lacking progress.
I am 35 years old living in Germany. My sport background from a young age is soccer and long-distance running. In my early twenties I started climbing and bodyweight training. Unfortunately while climbing I always had a pinching sensation in my left hip especially when flexing,abducting and both in inner and outer rotational movements of the hip. I saw two different orthopaedic surgeons. The first one said it would be a severe hipdysplasia the second one said that this was not the case and said instead it would be a CAM impingent. Unfortunately I followed their advice and limited all sports where bigger ROM of the hip joint is necessary. I also think that I developed some fear avoidance behaviour like kinesiophobia of all motions which put the joint at its end ranges. 
Some years after the diagnosis, always thinking about doing the surgery or not, I was questioning more and more if reducing the ROM was really beneficial for my journey. I found the FAI fix progamm and worked  with it. It was more improving the "feeling" of the hip than really improving ROM. Since some years ago I shifted my practice more towards handbalancing I recognised that also therefore I will need better flexibility of the hip for achieving movements like the straddle press. Last year I participated at the Master Flexibility Trainer Course from Dan van Zandt and worked with the Mobility and Flexibility toolkit. Since 6 month i am following a online coaching from Emmet Louis (M3). 
Unfortunately my progress concerning gains in ROM is incredibly slow to inexistend. This especially goes for the rotational movements and abduction. In Tailorspose I am just stuck at around 90degrees!  During a Workshop with Emmet he felt that there would be a lot of protective tension around my hip muscles. Therefore one idea would be to reduce this protective tension. 
Last year I did your beginner course online and did the relaxation scripts nearly on a daily basis for at least 3 months. Following your Email from today, it seems to me that I have to go back to do the basics and firstly follow your master the squat program.
My questions are however
 1) if you have ideas on what movements I should focus on the most?
2) which might be the areas holding me back the most? (for me all these pinching is not always exactly locatable. mostly i feel it in the front of my left hip)
3)  if u have other ideas concerning my training in general? Things to avoid, things to work on more etc.

My main goal is to get a better hip abduction and rotation. (for pancake and eventually side split improvements) Following your videos for me it seems that improving tailors pose seems mandatory for improving the above positons. And exactly in tailors pose I am stuck...

looking forward to hear some of your ideas. 
have a nice week, 
Andi 

p.s. i attached some pictures so you do have some impressions
 

[Nathan]

Hi Andi,

Welcome to the forums!

First, it sounds like you're still working with Emmet. Is that correct? Emmet is extremely good at what he does. If you've been working with him for six months, he also has a very good idea of your whole situation, progress, issues, etc. He will be able to give much better advice than anyone here, and mixing his guidance with advice from a bunch of other sources might only complicate things.

With that said, lying relaxation is a good addition to any routine. You said you did it daily for three months. Does that mean you stopped? Why?

Based on what you've written, I would recommend consulting Emmet, trusting his advice 100%, and adding daily lying relaxation back into your routine.

[Nauat]

Hey Nathan! Thanks for your ideas!

So I now do the relaxation scripts now and then. About once a week.. it defently feels good in a more general way. To calm the nervous system down and as a relief from stressful days at work etc. 

Iyes, I am still working with Emmet (or with the M3 team, Isaac, Nic etc). We now implemented more relaxed types of stretching, but still there are a lot of strength focused exercises inside.

He also recommended me to participate in a stretch therapy Workshop if there would be some, or try to experiment with these techniques. Since I also have some knowledge about different stretching techniques from the master trainer course and from my medical background as a doctor I am now only wondering if it would be useful to try a really even more relaxation focused approach. I learned a lot during these last month and from the workshop about the M3 system and will of course further apply it to my routines. 

 

Here I am especially interested if other people had similar issues concerning progress in side split and tailors pose? Maybe some other people also have been diagnosed with FAI ? And then  the ideas or things which helped them would really interest me! 

Looking forward for further ideas, story's or thoughts. 

Have a good week, Andi 

 

[Nathan]

Hi Andi,

Good to hear you've talked with Emmet about this and he gave you the go-ahead to experiment with other techniques.

On 7/6/2022 at 5:52 PM, Nauat said:

So I now do the relaxation scripts now and then. About once a week.. it defently feels good in a more general way. To calm the nervous system down and as a relief from stressful days at work etc.

My first recommendation (again) would be to return to daily relaxation practice. What you describe above is a reactive approach. This is not a bad thing, but far better, IMO, is to make the relaxation foundational, so that (ideally, and in time) you completely shift your whole baseline. To try an "even more relaxation-focused approach," you must (re)learn how to truly and deeply relax, not intellectually, but in a direct, embodied way.

On 7/6/2022 at 5:52 PM, Nauat said:

Here I am especially interested if other people had similar issues concerning progress in side split and tailors pose?

@Kit_L has struggled with both of these positions in the past and discovered solutions for his body. He may reply here, but I'd also suggest searching the forums. Off the top of my head, you will find a lot of good discussion around side splits and turnout in MaRo's workout log. From a quick search, here is something about tailor pose. There have been threads about FAI as well. Lots of gold scattered around the forums 

[Nauat]

Cool! Thanks for your answers again nathan. Indeed, I should come back to the relaxation scripts on a daily basis again! And thanks for the 2 links you posted, I will check them now. Also will do a bit of research in the forum for people/topics with FAI. Have a nice weekend, Andi!

[Kit_L]

I would also recommend going over to our youtube channel, and getting someone to help you with the partner hip flexor stretch; it's intense, but could make all the difference. And I agree strongly with Nathan's recommendation of learning about turnout in the link that he presented above. For me turnout was the key to getting side splits.

[Nauat]

Hey kit! Thanks for your recommendation! I liked the partner hip flexor a lot, when I did it. My problem here is consistency missing a regular stretching partner. I currently do the exercise in the picture attached, to work the hip flexors (integrated in my program). I definitely gained some flexibility in iliopsoas due to it (also some ROM gains in the back legs front split ability). But for the moment it does not (yet?) carry over to better rotation. Do/Did you see it often that opening up the hip flexors helps carry over to improve rotation?

I defently think that external rotation (that's what you refer to, when talking about turnout, or not?) is the missing link for getting better in legs apart for me. But here especially my left hip fires up like crazy (doing the tailors pose variations).. also coming out of the stretch is overly intense. Any recommendations of how getting out of the pose might be less intensive?

[Kit_L]

18 hours ago, Nauat said:

Do/Did you see it often that opening up the hip flexors helps carry over to improve rotation?

I have seen this, yes, but not in everyone. That's a good degree of extension and alignment you've got going in the image above.

My only reservation about this approach, is that the front of your leg is not touching anything – and it's very hard for the mind to let go of the fear of tearing something if there's nothing pressing up against the front of your quad. And if your leg is in space, it is almost impossible to let it relax much, and definitely not to the extent that we need it to relax to to get the maximum amount of extension in psoas itself. It is very hard to achieve this when you're doing the stretch that you're doing, and that is the reason I recommended doing the partner hip flexor as well. But if you can't find a partner, keep going with this—you can see your thighs are almost in the front splits position.

Re. getting out of the tailor pose: have supports high enough that you can use your elbows/arms to lift yourself out, or drop a rope from the ceiling in front of you so you can carefully pull yourself out. 

I realise I have not made a turnout-specific video and I should – and I realise that that's not even in the Mastery program either. The reason I have not done this up until this point is you actually require a partner who has really strong hands and arms. I will ask Miss Olivia if I can demonstrate the technique on her, and I will film it and put it on our YouTube channel so make sure you subscribe there and when it goes live you'll be the 1st to know about it.

 

[Nauat]

Cool! I would really appreciate to see and learn from a new turnout/tailors pose video from you. 

I will defently try to implement more partner stretching..it is a completely different feeling and helps me to relax way more in the stretch than doing weighted stretching. Concerning the picture from the hip flexor stretch: I am touching the yoga block with the front of the thigh. Every rep I try to push it away a bit more far. But it is defently not a hard resistance which I can relax into. It is more a target to reach to get deeper. But I feel this is a quiet "active" approach. Whereas I think during the next month/years I want to experiment/train more with your relaxation based approach. 

Looking forward for your updates on the turnout specifics on your YouTube channel! 

Andi 

 

 

[oliviaa]

Hi Andi. Have a look at the following:

https://stretchtherapy.net/the-pancake-reflections-on-mastering-the-essential-anterior-pelvic-tilt/

and

https://stretchtherapy.net/pancake-moving-sequence/

Cheers, Olivia

[Nauat]

Great article! I definitely have to go two steps back and start exploring ranges where it still feels more comfortable instead of going to deep and see my CNS firing up to wild.. 

The moving sequence I know and already did a dozen times. Always feels good to explore the range via these micromovements! Thanks. 

I will soon give the limbering session from the master the pancake a try. 

Thanks again for your recommendations!

[nick_kuchedav]

On 7/16/2022 at 2:11 AM, Kit_L said:

The reason I have not done this up until this point is you actually require a partner who has really strong hands and arms.

Count me as the first volunteer for this 💪 😊

[Kit_L]

@nick_kuchedav: if you were here, my friend, I would have pressed you into service already for this! We are selling our house soon, and preparation has consumed the last four months. As soon as I can find a willing demonstration partner I will film this.