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MaRo

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I was at home in the mountains for two weeks. I did a little limbering session everyday, but no serious stretching. I spent most of the days outdoors. It was fantastic.

Now back "at work" . I still feel the sore spot, I don't really know what to do with it. But it feels really good to be back at longer stretchtherapy sessions.

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Today I did tailor pose stretching after warm up. This is the only pose where I feel really ready for contract-relax and do it about once a day. After the stretching, my knees are about 10cm above the ground which is great!

Then limbring with chinese grinder, the oder standing wide leg limbers, skandasana and half pancake.

My little problem with tailor is that if I lean against a wall/door, I tend to slip forward.
I have a wooden floor which is too painful to sit directly on. So I squeeze a Yoga mat under the door and do tailor pose in shorts (naked legs slip less than leggings). But either I slip on the mat or the mat slips under the door. It is certainly because I am still not able to put my pelvis completely upright, but still, I struggle a bit with this. Has anyone any suggestions or ideas?

While the tailor pose improves, I see no difference in frog pose. In frog, it is the adductor longus that restricts deeper stretching. The strange thing is that I don't even feel a good stretch in the adductor. The muscle is like a cable, like an artifical thing which is not possible to lengthen. I can even grab it from outside, it is really solid.
I am a bit lost with this, because also in other poses/limbering actions/stretches I never get the feeling that I can adress this muscle strand. I feels as if it is just impossible to let it loose.
It has't to do with my "sore spot", this one ist further back. I also feel restriction in gracilis, but this is different - I think I can approach this one slowly.

If anyone has any suggestions about how to adress adductor longus, it would be very much appreciated. Is there maybe an antagonist I overlooked that needs to be strengthened first?

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after some thinking and trying:

is this again the "turnout" theme? When I activate my "turnout muscles" (outside thigh) while standing and do a demie plie, the adductor longus is loose. Is it therefore possible that I am just not able yet to activate these "turnout muscles" in positions like frog or straddle hence the adductor longus can not let loose?

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9 hours ago, MaRo said:

Today I did tailor pose stretching after warm up. This is the only pose where I feel really ready for contract-relax and do it about once a day.

This is not recommended, unless I have misunderstood you: use the contractions every third day only. To experience the feeling of being able to lengthen, it is essential to fully recover from the previous session's contraction's effects—and this only happens when you rest. Do the tailor pose daily, if you want, but without contractions two days out of three—this turns it into a limbering movement. Please be clear about the distinctions between "stretching" (which uses contractions, and yields greater ROM in the session) and "limbering" (no contractions). Stretch twice a week only for any part, especially if it is tight (your case) and you have had injuries in the past. I can tell you from 30+ years experience in this field it is a failure to distinguish between these two critically different activities that is the greatest barrier to people's long-term progress.

Regarding slipping forwards in the tailer pose: put the mat on the floor and your back against the wall, and concentrate on using the glutes to pull the legs down (don't press them down with your hands); actually, before I go any further with this, what is your reference for how to do the tailor pose? We have amended the directions a number of times. The free tutorial on YT gas all the latest cues. Short suggestion: concentrate on getting the legs to the floor first, before trying to pull yourself forwards (that is 'part two' of the pose and this will be hugely easier in the hips IF you can hold your legs properly onto the floor with your glutes). In other words, master part one first.

It is not possible to engage more turnout in the frog pose (femur position is more-or-less fixed in an internally rotated position); instead, use the Cossack squat (tutorial on our YouTube channel; search on "cossack"), where you can actively engage more turnout. Keep trying to turn the outstretched leg further into external rotation – this allows the greater trochanter to move more easily in the hip joint. It was Cossack squats that got me side splits back in the 'old days', not the squashed frog. Having said that, getting decent side splits allowed me to do a good squashed frog, but it took many years of Cossack squats and other exercises to get there. Getting real turnout was key for me and probably will be for you, too.

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10 hours ago, Kit_L said:

This is not recommended, unless I have misunderstood you: use the contractions every third day only. T

I am sorry - I wanted to write once a week. I stretch tailor pose once a week. It would be super crazy for me to do contract relax once a day...😬 ouch!

My reference for the tailor pose is the video in the pancake course (E1A). I will study the YT-Video today, thans for the link. Yes, I mostly slip forward when pressing on the knees.

Thanks for your explanation about the impossiblity of doing turnout in frog position, I understand.
I do Skandasana almost every day (moving towards Skandasana - it takes me a while until I come a bit further down) to get towards a Cossack Squat. I try to keep my legs turned out there, it is exactly one of the positions where my knees tend do slip inwards and bend. I will go on with that then.

It is interesting that you say that squashed frog did not get you closer to the side splits, but you got side splits via cossack squats and these improved your squashed frog. I never heard that before, but makes sense because the frog feels "blocked" for me while I get a loosening up feeling from doing Skandasana and Cossack Squats. I understand that the thigh has to be turned out do move the greater trochanter into the hip (I had to look at some anatomic pictures first, but it is pretty easy to see then)

While I don't "need"  full splits in any direction, I really like to improve the angle of twist of my legs in all directions. It would give me so much more range of movement.

Eg When I do handstands, it is pretty hard to keep balance because I need momentum to get up there because I can not straddle enough and not pancake enough to get up there slowly. I can compensate a bit with strenght, but not to a sufficient extent (and it is not a good way to go). Once up there, I can balance for about half a minute. So it is the flexiblity which would improve my handstand.

 

Again, thank you so much!

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Skandasana (feet parallel, and extended leg's foot held on the floor) has the femur internally rotated (so "turned in"), whereas the in the Cossack squat, the extended leg is externally rotated, and why I recommend Cossacks over Skandasana for you. In other words, practising the Cossack and making the leg turn outward will give you the turnout you need, in time. 

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Ok, I see the difference. The feet internally rotated is explained in the Skandasana Video, I just didn't recall it.

In the videos "Pancake moving sequence" (Liz) and in the "Rolling around the floor" video (Kit), movements like Skandasana (straddle position, side squat, moving from one to the other side) are done. There, the feet are not internally rotated. As far as I remember, they are not called Skandasana, it is me mixing up the names. I usually avoid using terms which I don't know a on a wellfounded base, I rather like to show movments/positions, but as this is only written exchange here about a field which is not mine and in a foreigne language, I apologize for this.

So I do movments towards cossack positions. I have to be really careful that the bent leg does not fall inwards - so that the knee stays above the toes. I guess this is key for me.

Thanxs for your patience with me!

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My Illiosacroiliac got blocked a couple of days ago. Fortunately, a Chirotherapist got it sorted. But the back feels a bit sore. Then I got a refresh vaccination against FSME ("tick vaccination") which always makes me feel sore. So just some very easy limbering these days... it is strange, my glutes feel crampy, in deep lunge the front thigh feels tight... very unusal but shows me that I should take it easy at the moment.

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I discovered when I come to kind of a standstill with certain stretches, I have to approach it from a differen angle. I am so happy that Stretchtherapy offers different exercices for poses/muscle areas and that it is said that there is no order, not given time to hold it etc. I learnd a lot about what I can feel in my muscles.

Eg deep lunge, a pose I do for years. It was never targeted and it never changed. With the approach of not being strictly square but to find the thight line of today, I found out that the square position at the moment is not leading me anywhere. I love the "rolling on the kneecap".

I do movments towards cossack squats every day. I do work my "turnout muscles" when I walk. I do turnout exercices. The muscles in my thighs have changed.

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Still no change at all in pancake or straddle position, but I enjoy doing the sidewards bending in sitting straddle position. It is so different to how it felt all the years.

Then one fantastic discovery in the rolling around the floor class: Pike stretching in sitting position with bent legs. Belly touches thigs and then working towards extending the legs. It is so different to concetrate on keepingthe belly close to the thighs than reaching for the feet. The stretching happens in different places of the backside of the legs. I play with this nearly every day, also in standing position. I guess it is how Elephant Walk should work, too.

I also keep doing my shoulder stretching, I just don't mention it here that often. It is possible to do back bridges several times a week which I really enjoy. They don't look like the ones my gymnasts do, but I am happy that I can do and work on it!

Hips are a bit sore. I think I have to be a bit more careful with the relaxation... I fell asleep during the muscle relaxation the last couple of days so I never completed it properly.

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Finally, we're allowed to do some gymnastics training again. Just in groups of 5 kids (under 14) or 2 youths (14 and over), only outdoor, and with distance.

It's not really gymnastics training, but it's more than nothing. The kids don't go to school since middle of December, they have just homeschooling. It's a lot of effort and long hours for me, but it's relevant for them to have something social, something with movememt.

So I do Stretchtherapy, it does me good every day, but I don't take much time to write down what I do.

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What do you think about this technique for getting into the gracilis on your own? That's a cork yoga block (has to be very firm) on top of a wedge (angled towards my body). The ball's diameter is probably a little too large, and any smaller might not get deep enough. I was definitely hitting some sore spots though and felt it afterwards.

Maybe an inline skate wheel could get in there.

PXL_20210505_225226297.jpg

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All you can do is try it, re-try your pancake (or whichever position you feel stuck in) and feel if it has improved.

To really get into gracilis, though, the knee has to be pulled straight, eventually. This is because gracilis is not put under full tension until the knee is straight and the inner hamstring–gracilis line is in tension (this is why the tailor pose can't help much with the pancake, too). The adhesions, if you have any, are between gracilis and the inner hamstring, in the last third where these muscles run down together in the thigh, across the knee. Both insert into the lower leg.

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19 hours ago, Kit_L said:

All you can do is try it, re-try your pancake (or whichever position you feel stuck in) and feel if it has improved.

Yes, sure! And the good thing is that I like doing Stretchtherapy work every day. I do not complain, I just report - and I do report my feelings frankly, which may sound like complaining. I am sorry for this!

I like the sitting hamstring limbering with the bent legs very much. Things are happening in my "back chain", glutes, hamstrings and smaller muscles in the lower back. This improves my forward bending in a much better way than any other pike exercise. I think it will improve the pancake eventually. Hip and legs feel a bit sore all the time, but the good kind of sore (like something is happening) - just by doing this position, some cossack squats, some turnout every day and other stretching/limbering by turns.

I do work on shoulders as well and I am now able to practise back bridge several days a week (not very pretty though).

@Jason thanks for your input. I will certainly try it this way. I do a similar way of working my inner thigh, also with a ball, but without the block. I just ly flat on my tummy and fold the leg out. Maybe I'll feel it when trying.

I understand the reason @Kit_L explains why the leg should be straight. I'll also try this, but I'm afraid I am not able to put it straight..

Thanks so much for your suggestions!

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5 hours ago, MaRo said:

I understand the reason @Kit_L explains why the leg should be straight. I'll also try this, but I'm afraid I am not able to put it straight..

What I was suggesting was to use exactly the position you are showing, and from there use your quadriceps on that leg to apply small slow leg straightening actions – as soon as the muscles you want to loosen under stretch, you will feel them, even if the knee is only at 45°. Work in that zone and that 45° will become 90° in time.

For me, I love the fact that you report what you're finding in detail, and I hope you keep on doing it!

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Thanks so much! I do keep doing it althoug I had to cut down the time a bit due to the long hours for training at the moment.

The absolut minimum of stretching/limbering I do is 15min/day, 2-3 times per week I can do about 30-60min.
Writing about the stretching/limbering helps me sorting my exercices. And the support here is unvaluable!

I tried the stretching with the ball today and I will keep playing with it. There are quite a lot of painful places on my inner thigh, the kind of pain that releases by working with it. It is not so easy to find a good position.

Still, the "pike with bent legs" is my favourite position for the moment. It changes a lot in my lower back and hamstrings and also glutes. If I do ordinary pike, the place that stretches the most are the calves.

I'll have to think more about deep lunge. I still find hardly changes in that position. The rolling on the kneecap hinted some things... I will take some pictures..

 

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3 hours ago, MaRo said:

Still, the "pike with bent legs" is my favourite position for the moment.

I like this very much too, but the standing Elephant Walk is even better, IMHO:

I am showing a beginner's version here, but intermediate and advanced versions fall out of the basic position easily. What I like about this most of all is that the weight of the upper body is applying a bit of a lengthening effect on the lumbar spine, and gravity is working for you brilliantly to stretch the hamstrings, especially up high under the glutes. You can emphasise the calf muscles (if you want to!) in this movement by putting the balls of your feet on a board or a block, so that the ankles are more flexed – this makes the calf muscles get more of the stretch. Try doing it this way and then go back to the floor version and see whether you have improved at all. This will only take a moment.

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Thanks for this! I did several variations of elefant walk as they are included in many of your videos, classes etc. Depending of my actual state, one or the other works better or less. I often have some problems with the strength of parts of my upper legs, also in the quad parts, which is strange, I am a skier (do this as a profession), usually thigh strength is no problem for me. I try to get to the source of this - I think it is not the strength per se, but a disbalance of power.

I will try the beginners version in this video, too - it will show me new aspects, I am convinced.


Today I did "rolling around the floor" again and it is astonishing how every time, different exercices just tick a box of my needs". Today, the sitting bent leg pike was a great preparation of the elefant walk later - followed by the pike variation at the end. AND at the very end, the advanced piriformis was suddenly really, really good on the right side. Impossible to find a good stretch on the right side though 😉 . I really love they way how it is explained to find thight lines, how to move around and not to force the body.

But what I really wanted to mention today:

I play around a lot with the deep lunge pose at the moment.
I practised "Blaster Pose" with long static holds for several months before I started Stretchtherapy. I hoped to become able to go down on my elbows one day. But literally nothing happened.

Now, with Stretchtherapy I learnad to play around with it, especially the "rolling on the kneecap" and the counsil of not always being strict in positioning, but rather moving around for finding the thight lines.

I found that it is not basically my hip flexor that is thight. Or rather: I don't get to the hip flexor. My thight lines are always in the front leg - and a bit in the groin. It is mostly on the inside of the thigh (adductors, as always, and gracilis) and also on the top part of the thigh (Quadriceps). Is this kind of possible? Rational? What shall I do with it? I am a bit confused.

But if I stretch my shoulder opening, it is also sometims the biceps that feels thight altough it is on the "closing" side.

lunge.jpg

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14 hours ago, MaRo said:

My thight lines are always in the front leg - and a bit in the groin. It is mostly on the inside of the thigh (adductors, as always, and gracilis) and also on the top part of the thigh (Quadriceps).

I can't see from the image if both arms supporting are on the inside of your front leg; I am assuming they are. And your goal is to be able to rest your upper body's weight on your elbows—is this right? 

If so, be aware that the adductors are extensors of the hip joint in this position (in addition to the glutes and biceps femoris). So that is quite a bit of what you feel. To test this, once in position and relatively relaxed, press the heel of the front leg's foot straight down onto the grass, and feel which muscles do this. After breathing and relaxing, let your arms bend and let your back bend too and try to get your forehead as close to the grass as possible. Swap sides and repeat. Then do the hip flexor stretch for both sides, then go back to the first front leg and repeat the sequence, and report back. If your hip flexors are tight, they can stop the movement of increased flexion in the font leg's hip because they are not soft enough to get out of the way. And that will be experienced as pain or tightness in the front leg's hip in the position shown.

So, the restriction you are feeling in trying to go deeper in the movement is probably a combination of all of this—and it will change, in time.

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Thanks. I will try it exactly like this tomorrow.

On the picture, on hand ist outside the front leg, one inside, but the position I am referring to (going down on elbows), both hands are inside.

Honestly, the goal of coming down to elbows is not very important. What I really like is to improve my general hip flexibility. And the "being able of going deeper into lunge" is  one part of it. One part that remained unchanged all the time. The "rolling on the kneecap" gave me the first hint of how I could work in that direction.

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Today I did as recommended:

Deep lunge, breathing and relaxing, bend arms, round back and lower myself as deep as possible. Then I took a picture, once with the hands on the mat, once with the bent arms on pillows.

Then I did a session of hip flexor stretching (standing, lunge and against wall) and took pictures again.

On the pictures I think I see that the hip is slightly more open after the hip flexor stretching.

I feel the stretch mostly in the front leg, hamstrings, quads, outside thigh top area (near "underbutt", but more on the side), adductors near groin, inside knee - and also on the back leg, there mostly in the quads (actually, this seems to be kind of everywhere...)
Today, I liked the standing variation of the hip flexor stretch (thanks for that video with the snow!) very much because there I felt more of the back leg and more stretching than just blocked.

20210515a.jpg

20210515b.jpg

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If I get a chance, I will shoot a quick sequence today that will really help what you're trying to do. What it is is the hip flexor stretch, done from the lunge position you are in, but I add a quadricep stretch to it, in the same position. We have found that many people who have relatively loose quads (as assessed by doing the standing or the floor quad stretch) and who have loose hip flexors (again, assessed by just doing the hip flexor stretch) find that they struggle massively when both ends of the same muscle group are stretched at the same time. All usual contractions can be done, plus you can add a leg straightening one. I will try to film this this week. I'll put it up on YouTube and come back here and put a link here.

As well, leaning on that object is absolutely the best way to learn how to relax in a position that most people find pretty intense.

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21 hours ago, Kit_L said:

We have found that many people who have relatively loose quads (as assessed by doing the standing or the floor quad stretch) and who have loose hip flexors (again, assessed by just doing the hip flexor stretch) find that they struggle massively when both ends of the same muscle group are stretched at the same time.

I guess this is exactly the problem! I think my quads are "ok" flexible, the hip flexors are "ok" flexible, but in combination - nearly zero.

Therefore, your suggestion would be very much appreciated!

While I am wailing and moaning about deep lunge and pancake, there are also astonishing things happening:
Today I did some stretching in "half pike" (one leg forward bending, other leg folded, foot on thigh) and suddenly, my forehead touched my kneecap 😲

This came unexpected! The leg was not gymnastics-like straight as I tried to relax into the pose, but it was relativly straight  and I did not pull forward-downward, I just hold on my foot.

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  • 4 weeks later...

I spent two weeks in my hometown and now I am back and working... things are getting a bit more normal here. We restarted training with the gymnasts, from next week on even indoor on apparatus!

Did some stretching and moving with the girls and I can see that have reached some things. While my flexiblity is still far away from being great, things in my body have changed and gotten loser.

I am very curious how touching the apparatus again feels...

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