Help with structure when starting

[Jak]

Hi all

Hope all is well during these funny times. Firstly apologies if this has been covered in this forum. This is my first post

I was hoping I could grab some advice regarding routine with master the squat. I have read this following a few times:

However I'm just not good at understand how to program it all with my current schedule. What I don't understand is to form a structure with this series. Im currently with gymnastics bodies stretch series and no matter how much hard effort I am putting in, I just can't seem to get better. I then emailed Kit and Olivia early this year and Kit kindly replied to me. I purchased the master the squat a while back and haven't used it yet as I'm still hoping the stretch series can help me improve for gymnastics bodies. I think it's time I somehow implement master the squat somehow along side it

Now I know Kit doesn't think sets and reps fits with stretching, but personally without structure I will fail with this. I don't understand how many times to hold the stretches and stuff. I fully get there's exercises to do once per week and daily. But how many 'sets' do I do this for. Eg 3 sets of 30 second holds? Really appreciate any advice as I cannot figure out how to structure it all. With GB it is a follow along with durations to be held.

Moves I suck at:

Butterfly position - very hunched over, knees high even though I'm sitting on a block

Pancake position (I'm aware there is another series on this). Hunched over and feel locked somewhere as unable to move forward very much

Vertical frog. Just don't understand how to get better at this. Currently use blocks to hold me up as I am unable to het hips close to the floor and rotate knee out 90 degrees

And many more. 

I'm not saying GB series doesn't work. Perhaps I'm not giving it enough time. However it's just too advanced for me and performed by already flexible people. I struggle to gauge progress 

Thanks all

 

 

[Kit_L]

5 hours ago, Jak said:

Now I know Kit doesn't think sets and reps fits with stretching, but personally without structure I will fail with this.

@Jak: that sentiment is just a thought. There is no connection, necessarily, between this thought and reality.

And what you have been doing, on your account, has not been working. So, you need to do something else.

Get started on trying the various exercises in MTS, and see how they feel. You will know straight away which are the most important. This is the key message of Rik's. Please read his specific directions about how often to do any exercise: the structure you are looking for is all there.

Re. pancake: when you get to this program, you will find that we do not recommend any seated versions like the one you describe, until the standing version (bent-leg to straight) has been mastered. And once this has been mastered, following Rik's suggested timings, the next time you try the seated version it will look and more importantly, feel, completely different. Let go of any thoughts about the process, and get stuck into it. You are entering a whole new world!

And Welcome to the Forums. This is where the rubber meets the road.

[jaja]

6 hours ago, Jak said:

Now I know Kit doesn't think sets and reps fits with stretching, but personally without structure I will fail with this. I don't understand how many times to hold the stretches and stuff. I fully get there's exercises to do once per week and daily. But how many 'sets' do I do this for. Eg 3 sets of 30 second holds? Really appreciate any advice as I cannot figure out how to structure it all. With GB it is a follow along with durations to be held.

Sometimes I hold a specific pose for more than 10 minutes and then, few days later, do the same stretch for a handful of seconds. You need to familiarize with your body and understand what it needs. If you need an anchor for your thoughts, you can count breaths and focus on relaxing on the exhale. Try counting 10 slow breaths with you complete attention on the area being stretched.

[Jak]

Thanks Kit and jaja.

I'm just gonna have to stop overthinking. It's not easy!  So when you let go of any thoughts about the process, what does that exactly mean? I'm putting in effort so I can gain results (with GB). When you don't see results it's pretty tough to take. Honestly I don't know if it's me being impatient thinking I'm not being impatient, the program or a mixture of both!

Thanks for the support guys

 

[Kit_L]

There are tangled threads here. In your first post, you wrote that 

On 5/4/2020 at 1:25 AM, Jak said:

but personally without structure I will fail with this.

Uttering this alone sets you up to fail—you identify an outcome that will happen if you don't get structure. This is nonsense, and at this point, untested. It is, as I mentioned, just a thought.

3 hours ago, Jak said:

So when you let go of any thoughts about the process, what does that exactly mean?

As I read here, no one has suggested this, have they? I recommend letting go of thoughts about outcome; thoughts about process may be useful. The reason is simple: change never happens fast enough for those who want it. But what I am recommending far more strongly is getting down on the floor and doing (in contrast to thinking) and accept that change will take whatever time it needs. The doing will open doors that, put simply, are not available to the mind thinking about X or Y. More: the changes we are talking about are not tangible, day to day. Most people realise (and it's usually a surprise) that they can now do something they could not do weeks or months ago. This is why we need a bit of faith in the system we are using. As I have written about in detail, getting more flexible is not linear; is not tangible; and will take longer than you want.

And of course, effort is required; otherwise nothing happens.

The problem with the GB course that you are doing is that it will not unlock your personal limitations. Basically, the limbering sequence that the models are doing (the two women are extremely flexible) will not help you become flexible, because what they are doing requires a high level of flexibility even to start. To get to that capacity yourself, you must begin at the beginning, and that's what Master the full squat does. Leave the GB material alone (including the strength work) for a month or two, and really get into the MTS material. You can do this any way you like; take a limbering movement and (say) two exercises and run through that sequence twice. See how these feel on the day. And take @jaja's suggestion of holding the final position of either of the exercises for five minutes—feeling what's happening. Do another sequence in two day's time. And so on. Please report back once you've done that.

[Kit_L]

@oliviaa pointed out to me yesterday that I seem to have contradicted myself (and I do sometimes), but I want to expand what I was driving at in these posts. When I said:

On 5/4/2020 at 7:20 AM, Kit_L said:

Let go of any thoughts about the process, and get stuck into it.

The key point here is "get stuck into it, don't think about it". And later on when I said, "As I read here, no one has suggested this, have they? I recommend letting go of thoughts about outcome; thoughts about process may be useful. The reason is simple: change never happens fast enough for those who want it. But what I am recommending far more strongly is getting down on the floor and doing (in contrast to thinking) and accept that change will take whatever time it needs".

No contradiction there, I feel. The point that I am making is the necessity of a shift away from thinking about process (or outcome) and actually doing the practise. The former will never substitute for the latter.

[Jak]

Hey Kit. Thanks for the messages. I understood what you meant in the previous message to be fair. However thank you Olivia for the input. Your last comment there does confirm what I thought you meant. Makes sense and nothing to hide here...spot on for those that want it change doesn't happen fast enough. That is me. 

I will come back to you shortly. 

Thanks all

Jak

[Jak]

Hi Kit

I'm gonna stick with what I said earlier regarding structure. To from A to B I believe I need a plan. I cannot just do these stretches just 'winging it'. With no objective I will not improve.

I've had a go and you have so many variations it's just too complex for me regarding how to to plan all this out. Everybody is different Kit regarding how they think. There's just to many stretches to fit in each day knowing which ones to select is impossible.  I wanted simplicity and structure and something achievable even with just 15 mins a day.

I can feel that all of the exercises are beneficial indeed. 

The challenge is I cannot cope will all the variations within each videos...its too much. I don't know which ones to pick on a daily basis. Simplicity is best for me and structure. 

I'm fairly frustrated at the moment, not with you guys, but myself and letting overwhelm kick in. 

I've just spent way over an hour and a half doing these stretches and just trying trying to figure out how on Earth to fit all this in. It's just like a big puzzle for me right now. You start with an exercise and multiple variations kick in which I don't know if I should or should not be doing. 

I may come back to this in the future, I'm determined to find something that suits me and my personality with clear structure so I can get in and get out.

Thanks kindly for all your help and support and product. I'm just too lost with it 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Kit_L]

@Jak: did you actually do what I suggested above?

First, you noted that the gymnastics body program was not working for you – so I said one conclusion that one can draw from that is that it is not the right program for you. If it was the right program, you will be making progress—and you would not be asking for assistance here.

Next I suggested that you try all of the exercises and feel which ones had the strongest effect for you (or, which are the most difficult; find the easiest version of that, and select it). Only you can find this out. Add some other ones are easy to do and stick with that selection for a while and see what happens.

First is the process of selecting the exercises (the difficult ones are likely to be the ones that are best for you, in the long run), and two is actually doing them and one or two others that feel good when you do them. If you do this, you will end up with a list of exercises which we suggest you try to get deeper into once or twice a week.  That is the first part of the plan. As you improve, select the next most difficult version, and move onto it—remember, one of the core instructions is that you need to be able to do the ones you practise, so select suitable versions. There are many, as you said, but you do not need to do all of them, after the first run through.

Second part of the plan is that you put the mobility exercises together from the MTS program and do those every day but have one day off a week. 

How about you do that and report back with your list of exercises? The deeper point is that the reason why the gymnastics body program is not working for you it is is because it is not targeted to your specific restrictions and requirements. And the only way you can find out what these are is to actually try all the exercises as I suggested to you in my first reply (and this is what Rik said, too). You have to make the list. And that then becomes your plan.

Please stop defeating yourself be thinking that it is all too difficult, or by saying to yourself that "I'm just too lost with it". That approach will be as effective as the GB program.  

Do these things I describe above, put that list together, and get back to us with it. We will definitely help you as you immerse yourself, but this first step is yours alone.

 

[oliviaa]

Hi Jak. Another option is to use the Absolute Beginner's Stretching Series. These are all follow-along sessions. No thinking required (!), rather the focus is on pressing play and doing the exercises with the presenter. The series covers the whole body. There are 21 programs across the three Parts that comprise the series, and they are each between 15 and 25 minutes. You could do them all in three weeks, one per day. The 'program' you are looking for on is built in, with the focus on trying out exercises for the whole body, as compared to the Mastery programs which focus on a particular end position. Just a thought. Cheers Olivia

[Adley]

Hi Jak and all. 

There is something I would like to add here. 

I found ST about a year ago. I bought the ABS series and have benefited and enjoyed every program I have done, but still was left with uncertainty about what do do with it all. And I have often felt unsure how to use the "system". 

Yet I know there is definitely something for me to benefit from ST. I find my mind and my body thinking about it and being drawn to it. 

During this time, I have and continue to be a regular practitioner of Iyengar Yoga.  One of the things I enjoy about doing Iyengar, is that there is a set structure to the class. I can just follow along with what I am being told to do. But I don't get the same deep self reflection and inner knowledge about my own body in the same way I do while doing ST. 

A few things:

First, I am starting to get that it is from my own exploration of the ST programs that I can develop my own "class", which may be diff each day. No one will knows better than me what I need. I so want someone else to tell me what do do, but I don't think that's how this system works, or nor do I think it should.

Second, there's something profound that I have found in ST that I have not discovered in any other body oriented work I have done, and that's the concept of relaxation while doing the stretches. As a man I was not conditioned to find relaxation easily, especially while using my body. I think I could have avoided many sports injuries had I discovered ST earlier. In the past, I would have forced and try to "muscle" my way into a new range of motion, which would often lead to injury. Now it feels like I am heading towards a new ROM with caring and relaxation as companions. Not always completely successful,  but there is progress. 

Third, part of what has made relaxation in the ST stretches possible for me, is the deep caring I perceive by Kit and Olivia for the well being of those that find ST. They don't seem so concerned with students obtaining an end position as much as they want us to find where we are and what is the next step for us, and how do we find the right support and position at this time which is best for us. Thanks so much. 

That being said, I am still trying to figure out how to incorporate the ST programs more into my life. And assume it is a journey. I think I may need to reach out to this forum more for some guidance, but often find myself hesitant to ask for the resource. 

Best, 

Adley Gartenstein 

Brooklyn NY, USA

[Kit_L]

23 minutes ago, Adley said:

I think I may need to reach out to this forum more for some guidance, but often find myself hesitant to ask for the resource. 

Please ask away! This is what we are here for. And sincere thanks for your eloquent post, above: it is beautifully put, I believe. 

 

[Jak]

Hi all

Kit - Thanks for the advice and information, I do appreciate it.  I am sorry again, please understand I still PREFER something in concrete, something planned.  What you are saying is that i need to create the plan, and that is great, the issue is the list is far too long - I feel i need to do all of them if not MOST.  They are all 'difficult'.  I have already mentioned earlier on regarding times and sets to hold stretches for - the lack of this, this does not help me. I am not willing to wing it and just mess around and guess.  Please understand kit that this massively triggers my analysis and overthinking.  It is something I suffer with and have always struggled and has paralysed me before regarding taking any action.  When i realise this is happening I have to change my approach which could mean look for another program that complies with what works for me with regards to preference.  I cannot dedicate every single day to an hour and half of doing all the stretches in this series.   This doesn't mean that I do not want it enough.  I really think that it is definitely possible to achieve results in 15-20 mins of focussed stretching each day  (and yes it is about the RESULTS - you can waste so much time on concentrating on the process and still not get a result - that is actually possible). I have been there.  NOTE - I am not at all in anyway, shape or form undermining your work and products. It is clear you and Olivia are great.  As i said, it just doesn't work for me, the very thought of going through it again with no idea how long to hold any stretches for and how may sets literally stresses me out, on top of all the variations.  It is too easy to assume that exercise selection is simple.  I don't know how else to explain it to you.  At least with GST, there is a set routine with times, but unfortunately after hard effort nothing has paid off with the reasons you have mentioned. 

'Please stop defeating yourself be thinking that it is all too difficult, or by saying to yourself that "I'm just too lost with it"'  - The classic easier said than done i'm afraid.  

To put it simply I have a problem with overthinking and the MTS program makes it worse.  It is possibly the first series i have come across with zero structure.  

Oliviaa  - thanks for the input and alternative suggestion.  How 'beginner' are we talking?  Do you have a sample or anything?  If anything, I want to improve my shoulder flexibility/mobility, hips being the biggest one and hamstrings.  I cannot even sit in a cross legged position without knees being so high and back slightly rounded.  I can touch my toes with straight legs.  Hips is number one though....struggle with it all. 

Currently I am doing yoga to help overall at least twice a week, and have just started Gravity Yoga which i found recently.  Each day focuses on a different group of muscles/joints.  You hold a max of 3 -4 positions for a max of 5 minutes each.  It is 15 mins a day. If you can only hold for 2 mins then that it is fine, you try and hold a little longer the next time. It is too early to give feedback on this yet, I must review after 4 weeks at least. It sounds easy but its definitely challenging.  

 

Thank you both

 

[Jak]

Adley

Thanks for the insights.  I can see ST has helped you massively.  It is also clear that you have some challenges with how to use the system, which helps a little knowing I am not alone in feeling this way. 

If i can ask, how have you developed the mindset of 'relaxing' into a stretch?  No matter how much I try focus on the breath, it is very difficult to relax into something that is uncomfortable.  Perhaps I am not giving it enough time.  Rather, just like you did previously I am forcing it.

What is your current routine now then if you son't mind me asking?  How may days a week are you practising and how long per day?  Much appreciated

Jak

 

[Adley]

Hi Jak. 

I want to appreciate your honesty and sincerity I feel from you as I read your posts.  I can tell you genuinely want to find something for yourself. 

Since you asked me my thoughts, I'm gonna take the liberty of saying a few things. Please feel free to ignore all of them.

One of the things I read in one of Kit's books was that when someone is under anesthesia,  they have complete range of motion. The tightest person is able to have great range when under anesthesia, but any restrictions return as soon as the person comes out of it. What this emphasized for me is how much my (our?) limitations are the result of tension in our bodies. I think our bodies are a map of all of our life  experiences since conception. I don't think one can have a life filled with stress and chaos and have great flexibility. 

There's a reason why Kit and the ST system include meditation guides. I think it's part of us needing to learn to relax in general. The more we learn to relax, to calm the mind, in general, the more we can apply that while stretching.

I have done peer counseling for the last 23 years. The emphasis is on healing from emotional and physical  hurts from our past (which we all have) through emotional release. Often crying, laughing or shaking. This has had the result of me finding more peace for myself in my mind and my emotions. 

Something about ST feels inline with my work in peer counseling. I think some of my past hurts have been captured in my body and reflected in my physical limitations. While I’m in a stretch and feeling restriction, I try to offer kindness and softness to these spots.  

I would like to see you learn to be kind to yourself. This is difficult for most people, especially men. I don’t think any system will feel “just  right” at this point for you,  because that is the voice of the tension. My thought for you is consider a goal not to obtain a new range of flexibility, but to learn to relax and really appreciate yourself. You seem like a wonderful person who is probably pretty hard on himself.

Consider a path of kindness to yourself and your body. 

As far as as what I do with the ST system. 

On most days I do the daily 5(6) in the morning. It’s a great way for me to explore my body and say hello to it. A few days a week I will find 30 mins or so to work on some of the stretches I’ve decided are important to me right now. The primary ones being the  hamstring lunge, and the piriformis on a bolster. I have learned these are key for me, and a great challenge to try to find relaxation in these poses. Not easy, but progress is happening. Also, and perhaps more importantly, I also incorporate various stretches throughout my day. I take breaks from my work to do a few stretches, like the Elephant Walk. When my family has a movie night, I’m often on the floor and stretch while watching. Maybe I’ll spend some time in a squat. 

I also take 1-2 Iyengar Yoga classes a week. They don’t seem in conflict. Yoga feels like a choreographed dance. I like the balance aspects in handstands, and head stands. 

Good luck on your journey. 

 

[Kit_L]

22 hours ago, Jak said:

I still PREFER something in concrete, something planned.

That may be, but that is not what you are going to get. The many reasons why have been canvassed at length above. If that simple approach worked, that's what we would be recommending. It does not work. 

22 hours ago, Jak said:

It is possibly the first series i have come across with zero structure.  

That is nonsense. The program you are not working with, but are talking about, is a guide to how to find the structure you need for your body. Rik outlined the approach to take in detail: you have to try things, and you have to FEEL what the response is, and you, only you, have to decide whether the exercise being tried makes the selection cut, or not. You do not have to do all the variations (I already said this); you start with the easiest (you have to try them to know which these are) and then stick with the ones you can do. Forget the harder ones. I have said this in many ways, but you cannot hear it: only you can find out which these are. Even if you paid me to sit alongside you while you do this, I could not do this for you!

Schedule problems? Do a different 20 minutes from that course daily, or every second day, and make notes. At the end of a few weeks, if you actually do this, instead of thinking about why you can't, you will have your list.

As I wrote above, "Do these things I describe above, put that list together, and get back to us with it." You have not done this, so we cannot help further.

Last point: what you have been doing, on your account, has not been working for you. Don't think that by repeating it, or thinking more and more about why you can't do X or Y, somehow something is going to change – it will not. Please do what I suggest and get back to us with the list. If you don't want to do that, please go back to the GB programs or some other follow-on program, like Gravity Yoga. 

[oliviaa]

 

Hi Jak

 

I was in the supermarket yesterday and there was a little dude, probably four years old, having an epic tantrum – LOUD – because his mother wouldn't let him have a lolly he wanted. His mum and three siblings were trying to console him, but he was committed! Reading your posts in this thread brought that dude to my mind. You are committed to the *idea* that you want a pre-set structure. Above, I gave you the suggestion to start with the ABSS programs; your response ("How 'beginner' are we talking?") is, well, silly. You are a beginner, Jak, so begin, or don't – it's your choice. Kit has given you extensive advice about how to use the MTS program; follow his advice, or don't – this is also your choice.

 

Finally, consider this: Kit is 67 years old and moves and functions better than many many people in their 20s, and he started with very poor flexibility coupled with crippling lower back pain – he is the testament to the advice he has given you. It's your choice now: you can get started, or like the child* in the supermarket, you can choose* to put your energy into just making lots of noise. [* Big difference, of course; you are an adult.]

 

Cheers

Olivia

[Jak]

Hi Adley

Thank you for the message and kind words. Thanks for sharing your experience. Over 20 years in counseling is quite amazing! 

I agree with you with regards to men finding it difficult to accept themselves and especially be kind to themselves. I've struggled with it for years.

I've sent you a personal message to thank you as you have taken considerable time to reply and share your experience. Thanks for the kind words, there's more than enough individuals trying to put ppl down, with a lack of any knowledge about what people go through, especially mentally. 

All the best bud

 

 

 

[Kit_L]

@Jak: For the record, no one on this thread has been putting you down. You stated a problem; many people have responded to you with sincere advice on how to solve that problem, and you have decided to not take that advice. That is your choice, of course. And also for the record, I have been a practitioner working with many tens of thousands of people over 35 years, and that's the background to my own advice.

I have just re-read all this thread. @oliviaa's advice to do the Absolute Beginner's Stretching Series (the first of the three can be bought at a huge discount from our site) — these are exactly what you say you need: follow-along programs, all solo exercises, no partner work, and so on. But your only response to her sensible, caring suggestion was: 

On 7/9/2020 at 8:09 PM, Jak said:

How 'beginner' are we talking?  Do you have a sample or anything?  If anything, I want to improve my shoulder flexibility/mobility, hips being the biggest one and hamstrings. 

The name of this program answers this question (plus there's heaps of information on our site about them, too): Absolute Beginner's Stretching Series. You are a beginner— so get the first one in the series (each part has seven programs, varying in length from 15–25 minutes) and follow along. Do one of the comprising programs two or three times a week. 

[Jak]

Hi Olivia/Oliviaa

Apologies for offending you in any way shape or form. 

I assumed a forum is there to discuss things and one should not feel like they can't ask or respectfully question anything, or should not feel like they cannot express honesty, like I do now.

I'm not interested in putting people down who have just been honest and there is certainly nothing wrong with my response regarding beginners. You deemed it 'sillly'. Its nothing but a genuine response Olivia. That is why I gave you examples of some things I can and cannot do. There are different levels to anything you do...example a beginner, intermediate or advanced calisthenics program with each having required skill that can be done. If you felt it was silly then I am sorry.

It was your choice to provide this type of response (comparing an individual to a child) Happy to take this on the chin and smile.It's your forum and I suppose it's fine for you to write anything you want. That was your choice to do that.

Thank you for the prior advice.  

Take care and best wishes.

 

 

Kit- I may not have provided you a list, but I did give it a go. The only thing I'm going to say regarding structure is that if it was all as easy and assuming then why would Rik take the time to write such a lengthy post on HOW TO use the programs?  I'm not going to write anything else regarding this.  

I will continue with gravity yoga I must see it through consistently at least. I need 4 weeks to see a small change/progression, which would mean everything to me once I see and feel this improvement.

Thanks for the advice, I will come back to the forum soon if after an extended period of time I see no progress or feel no improvement - if you let children back in the forum that is 😉 🙂

It's just simply not for me right now whether you think that's nonsense or not.

I've made the decision to see gravity yoga through for at least 4 weeks and let's see where I'm at.  I've chosen to do this for now. 

I truly don't want to waste your time any longer. I mean that in a warm way because that's simply what is happening here. 

All the best Kit and I want you to know that I really do appreciate the information and help. 

[Jak]

I've just seen your response Kit. After I've just submitted mine. 

Thanks you so much for the information, now you making me feel bad!

Let me get through this Gravity Yoga first. 

Jak x

[oliviaa]

Jak, I'm not offended by anything you wrote. And, you are welcome for the advice; no thanks is required. My reflection back to you is that rather than follow the advice, you continue to write back about why you can't, and more, how you've moved on to another system. Good luck with that; I hope it works for you. My observation about the child was about behaviour, which you, as an adult, can choose to change in yourself if you want to. I did in myself, a long time ago, and I have excellent flexibility, something you claim you want in your own body – I wish you well in that endeavour. Olivia

[Kit_L]

@Jak: you are always welcome back.

And, sincerely, I hope Gravity Yoga works for you—the point here is that it may, just because you are trying/doing it. I won't rehash everything I and others have written, but you did not give our system a try in the same way. I understand you just want to have something prescribed for you, and that was what @oliviaa suggested to you with the ABSS recommendation. You were resistant to her suggestion—again, no problem. But, please, explain to us: why you decided to go with Gravity Yoga? And please do report back after you have done the course—I am interested in your results.

[Jak]

Hi Kit/Olivia

Please excuse the late reply.

Thanks for the messages much appreciated.  Yes, you are correct I did come back explaining why I can't.  I do understand where you are coming from, it is just my belief about this system and i struggle to change it.  I was after a very simple effective structured training.  And that is all there is to it.  I have failed too many things in the past with trial and error so simple structure does it for me (that  is my current belief).  That may change in the future who knows.  One this is for certain, anything complex triggers over analysis for me and I need to step away from this kind of thinking in an attempt to change.  I have tried meditation (cant quire remember how long, maybe 3-5 months) to help calm my mind, i could not notice any changes.

I decided to go with Gravity Yoga simply because of its simplicity and follow along.  The reason I did not go with the ABSS recommendation was because I already purchased Gravity Yoga before this suggestion was made and after trying the Master The Squat exercises.  I am happy to try in future, i think series 2 and 3 would potentially be well suited for me as I have seen the trailers.

Hope that helps with any unanswered questions.

Jak

[Jim Pickles]

I have read (well, skipped through some of it a bit) this interesting thread. May I add my own comment?

It's to HAVE FUN!