Truth About Flexibility Interchange Between Kit And Myself

[Maurice]

3 minutes ago, jaja said:

I lack both the knowledge and the experience to say your either “wrong” or “right”, but I’m almost certain you don’t get everything about ST.

You’re right, I don’t get everything about ST. I never said it was a bad system or that it doesn’t work. There are many aspects to it and each aspect seems to have different benefits. 

Throughout my research, I found out that people like Emmet Louis and Kit were on the same general page as I was when it came to Flexibilty training. It seemed they found methods they liked or were always looking for ways to improve. I wasn’t looking for a new system to try. I wanted to talk with like minded individuals that would hopefully understand me. 

I wasn’t at a stand still and needing help. I didn’t say my pancake sucks, my active flexibility is trash, or my hips are too tight to squat properly. I am already making great progress doing what I’m doing and wanted to see if I could fine tune the method a bit more. Since Isometric Stretching is one method used in ST, I thought I could get some useful info on that one method.

I’m honestly not sure what everyone thinks is the real reason for me being on the forum or reaching out to Kit in the first place. To me, it seems like everyone thinks I view ST in a negative light. But I don’t think badly of it at all.

The benefits people are getting from following ST and how highly they view it is similar to how highly I view the method I’m using because of its benefits. ST covers many different topics and has a plethora of information. I just so happen to want to focus on one specific thing

[jaja]

Alright, then. Here you can find open minded people happy to engage in constructive discussions. There's a section here called “workout logs” where everyone is encouraged to share their daily practices and track the progress. Since you're here, you could start doing that and maybe attach some videos or picture from time to time. That way we could see your method at work, maybe learn something and keep the discussion going.

Or you could keep track of the threads opened here and give your perspective on various topics. Because…

1 hour ago, Maurice said:

I wanted to talk with like minded individuals that would hopefully understand me. 

… even if we disagree with you on some things, I think we're still “like minded” 

[Maurice]

2 hours ago, jaja said:

Alright, then. Here you can find open minded people happy to engage in constructive discussions. There's a section here called “workout logs” where everyone is encouraged to share their daily practices and track the progress. Since you're here, you could start doing that and maybe attach some videos or picture from time to time. That way we could see your method at work, maybe learn something and keep the discussion going.

That seems like the best option to me. I may think Isometric Stretching is the supposed “holy grail” of Flexibility/Strength training, but showing the results is more powerful than anything I can say.

I mentioned I didn’t think my results were “impressive enough” to deem “miraculous” but others may view them differently. I may just be delusional. I only have been messing around with Isometric Stretching for a couple months and I’m still digging deeper trying to fine tune it. No matter how “miraculous”, results take time.

Almost every training session has been different so it would be difficult to explain why I do certain Isometric Stretches. I’m currently trying to compile a list of all the different muscles/muscle groups and the best ways to target them as individually as possible.

I didn’t want people thinking I was trying to sway others from the ST system or act like I was all knowing. I am happy to focus specifically on Isometric Stretching my way and be my own test subject.

Maybe I can post each Flexibility/Strength milestone (Front Splits, Side splits, planche, 1-arm chin-up for example) and talk about how I achieved each one.

[Emmet Louis]

On 12/10/2018 at 6:33 AM, Maurice said:

I’m under the impression flexibility and strength are more connected than people think so that is why I continued talking about them together. 

I’ve seen the data on isometrics being very joint specific. A common belief is that there may only be a 15 degree carryover from the contraction joint angle. I’m attempting to disprove this. If I succeed and if I want “extraordinary active flexibility”, training the short length will be unnecessary.

Just to add to this. You need to read deeper into the research on isometric training. There's a limited sub grouping of people circa 15% iirc who gain strength over the entire range from isometrics at any joint angle, 85% of the rest of the population only gain the normal plusminus 15-20 degrees. But these are using only normal strength science testing, i.e isokinetic machines. 

You also need to more closely define what you mean as an isometric, there's two main types and they have very different effects on the muscle and development of flexibility. Examples given of a planche as an isometric exercises is poor as due to the constant rebalancing action of the planche its not a true isometric as the joint angles are generally wobbling about plus minus 5-15 degrees during the set.

To throw some counter data at you, there's some people I've met who lose flexibility when I've used isometric training at lengthen ranges. We've had to use different methods as the isometrics failed completely at gaining range.

 

[Maurice]

2 minutes ago, Emmet Louis said:

You also need to more closely define what you mean as an isometric, there's two main types and they have very different effects on the muscle and development of flexibility. Examples given of a planche as an isometric exercises is poor as due to the constant rebalancing action of the planche its not a true isometric as the joint angles are generally wobbling about plus minus 5-15 degrees during the set

Hey Emmet I appreciate the reply. I did define Isometric as muscle length constant under tension while Isotonic is muscle length changing under tension.

If a person could perform a perfect planche, iron cross, front/back lever, etc., they would be doing Isometrics because they wouldn’t/shouldn’t be moving when they get into position. That’s extremely difficult to pull off correctly. I also stated in one message the planche and iron cross as not being good Isometric exercises for training lengthened end range strength.

They are compound skills/exercises and they don’t put any target muscle in its fully lengthened/stretched position. It’s difficult to maximally contract one muscle when you are using so many muscles at the same time as well. The only muscle group close to full length under tension in the planche and iron cross are the biceps. Who does the planche or iron cross for the purpose of lengthened end range bicep strengthening? There are plenty of better ways to go about that.

I try to isolate the target muscle as much as I can, put it in a stretched position, and maximally contract against an immovable force/object. The floor or wall are good objects to use. The problem is sometimes my bodyweight isn’t heavy enough to be an “immovable object” for the target muscle. Muscle groups like the calves and glutes are really strong in proportion to my bodyweight.

[Emmet Louis]

Sorry I don't have the time to read the whole thread as its wall of text central. So apologies to anyone if i miss anything or repeat something

So what you say you're doing is "overcoming isometrics" to use the correct term. There's a large body of research on the effect of these versus the "yielding type" isometric. Its very different end result. In general you'll find that the overcoming type have a really strong effect initially and then it kind of tapers off after a few months. Maybe you're also part of the group that gains strength across the whole range when using isometrics. Iirc @dave wardman is part of this group so he might be able to add something.

You have to get creative alright to find ways of doing these. Using sticks and poles to help wedge your self will help alot here as will "lifting strops" these aren't for weight lifting but from an industrial lifting / crane shop / warehouse. these can help a lot here as they're loops and can be attached to something heavy enough to not move and then wrapped around the limbs while being wide enough to not stop circulation.






 

[Maurice]

1 minute ago, Emmet Louis said:

Sorry I don't have the time to read the whole thread as its wall of text central. So apologies to anyone if i miss anything or repeat something

No worries at all. Most of it was me arguing with everyone else. I didn’t really get to the point until the later messages anyway. 

I use “Isometric Stretching” as the term because I feel it covers the bases. The version I do would indeed be “overcoming isometrics” because maximal contraction is the goal. But you don’t need to be in a stretched position for all “Overcoming Isometrics” whereas I believe that is a key aspect to the approach. Maybe I can say “Overcoming Isometric Stretching” to help clarify.

6 minutes ago, Emmet Louis said:

In general you'll find that the overcoming type have a really strong effect initially and then it kind of tapers off after a few months. 

I agree. I believe the more strength potential you have, the faster your gains will be. “Beginner Gains” as it were. The stronger you become/less potential you have/closer to the genetic ceiling, the slower the progress. I am very weak, like most people, in the lengthened end range so the results come very quickly as I’d expect.

It is hard enough to be very creative even though I’m extremely weak. It becomes much more difficult the stronger each muscle becomes. What position worked when I was a complete beginner may be borderline useless when I get much stronger.

If I always had a lifting partner, it would  be a lot easier. They could apply force in all directions. Unfortunately gravity, the main force at my disposal while alone, only applies force straight down.

14 minutes ago, Emmet Louis said:

Iirc @dave wardman is part of this group so he might be able to add something.

Thanks for the tip. My desire was to meet others that may have put their creativity to the test and figured out the best ways already to go about “Overcoming Isometric Stretching”. Or at least help me find a way. The more minds the better

[Kit_L]

On 12/12/2018 at 5:15 AM, Maurice said:

My desire was to meet others that may have put their creativity to the test and figured out the best ways already to go about “Overcoming Isometric Stretching”.

What do you think we are already doing here? What you describe as your discovery is one of the methods w already use. The problem I have with your responses are, 1) they are not well reasoned (there are many examples in what you wrote that I have called you on in our exchanges, yet you have not come back to me on any of them), and 2) you simply disagree with other perspectives, without engaging on the "whys" and "wherefores". In other words, you are prejudiced. You are unwilling to consider other approaches to becoming more flexible.

You disregard our other techniques which have been seen to work with many other people here over many years, despite a number of people offering the same kind of anecdotal evidence you adduce to support your positions—but you are not interested in these other techniques.

You only want people to agree with what you have found (and as it's a core method of our method, we have all already agreed with its utility) and you want to argue in its favour against other methods we have also found to be useful under different conditions.

As we already have effective stretches for every muscle of the body, and can apply isometrics contractions at end range for all of them, I do not see that we have anything further useful to discuss. Unless you start to contribute something useful and interesting, instead of simply repeat assertions you have already made, and begin to argue effectively by considering counter-positions, I am finished here.

A more general point: in order to learn anything new, letting go of preconceived positions is essential, and you will need to experiment in other areas than your "one true method".

Good luck with that.

 

[Maurice]

2 minutes ago, Kit_L said:

In other words, you are prejudiced. You are unwilling to consider other approaches to becoming more flexible.

I’m gaining flexibility using “my method”. It’s not new. I just believe I’m going about it a different way than most. I am not stuck or plateaued. Why fix something that isn’t broken?

4 minutes ago, Kit_L said:

You disregard our other techniques which have been seen to work with many other people here over many years, despite a number of people offering the same kind of anecdotal evidence you adduce to support your positions—but you are not interested in these other techniques.

I said on many occasions there are other methods to increase flexibility. I never said my approach is the only way. Even the method I think is not a good one, static stretching, has proven useful to many people. I would be a fool to not believe the “evidence”. I never told others to stop using your techniques or that they were a waste of time. 

 

7 minutes ago, Kit_L said:

You only want people to agree with what you have found (and as it's a core method of our method, we have all already agreed with its utility) and you want to argue in its favour against other methods we have also found to be useful under different conditions.

My whole objective was around MY GOALS. I wasn’t trying to convert anyone to my way. I was trying to improve what was already proving useful TO ME. Again, I know there are other methods that would achieve a similar result. And I know you use isometric stretching as ONE of your methods. For some reason, doing Isometric Stretching is benefiting ME in ways that no one else has experienced themselves. If it wasn’t working for ME, I would do other methods like what everyone else is doing.

 

10 minutes ago, Kit_L said:

Unless you start to contribute something useful and interesting, instead of simply repeat assertions you have already made, and begin to argue effectively by considering counter-positions, I am finished here.

No one has considered my “counter-positions” either. The same thing I’m being accused of is what I see you all doing to me. It’s an endless loop of “I’m right and your wrong.” I’m even being accused of saying things I didn’t say nor imply. You think your other methods are better for various things and I believe one method is great for everything. I’m testing it on MY body. You all have nothing to lose in this. If I’m wrong, you can just sit back and laugh and say I told you so.

I said I don’t want to argue. I don’t plan on adding anything else to this thread unless questions are asked. I already said I’ll just have to post my results to prove my point for myself.

According to what people have said, I shouldn’t be able to increase my Active Flexibility with just lengthened end range strengthening. I’m curious to find out if that is really true. Among other things.

I’m not looking for test subjects or to bash anyone’s work. I’m using a method that is  working for ALL of MY flexibility needs and was simply seeking help to fine tune it. The discussion obviously didn’t go how I would have liked.

I will post my progress on a different thread. There is nothing more I can do or say. I hope what everyone else is doing keeps giving them the great results they desire. I hold no ill will toward anyone

[Kit_L]

12 minutes ago, Maurice said:

According to what people have said, I shouldn’t be able to increase my Active Flexibility with just lengthened end range strengthening.

That is simply not true, Maurice. I and other have said, repeatedly, that you do not need to insist on your method's effectiveness—we already use it and it works. What are you going to add that's new to what we already so?

Please do post elsewhere and, if you learn anything new, please post back here in a new thread; I am locking this one, because it's not going anywhere, and you cannot hear.