Joe's Joint

[Naldaramjo]

6 hours ago, Kit_L said:

I have never seen active extension of more than 45° in non-contortionists; FS is achieved by this amount of extension, additional passive extension, and some anterior pelvic tilt plus hamstrings that can lengthen beyond 90° for most people. Not to mention that flexible people cheat by not having their hips square. Still, getting down at all is fine, and then the position can be re-fined (sorry about the pun!)

Well, I know what my goals are now, roughly. I much prefer to go directly to re-fine, rather than stop by fine along the way.😁

[Naldaramjo]

On an unrelated note, has anyone here ever had a shoulder injury? How long did it take to heal? I have one that was likely the result of too aggressive stretching, and while it doesn't affect general ROM, there are some things that I simply can't do right now. Anything that requires strength in a vector along the body's length, for example (e.g. downward facing dog, handstands). And raising my arm up above my head. It's been this way for a while now (a couple of months), and I'm not sure what I can do to help it along. If I were to guess, I'd say it's one of the anterior deltoid fibres, but I don't really know.

[Kit_L]

On 12/15/2019 at 10:48 AM, Naldaramjo said:

has anyone here ever had a shoulder injury? How long did it take to heal?

I am dealing with this (both shoulders) presently. It's been going on for 12 months +.

The 90-day front squat challenge brought out some long-standing injuries in both shoulders, and the symptoms sound very similar to yours. Like all my past injuries, I deal with them the same way: the desired ROMs are pursued, but at an intensity that does not irritate them further. Still, the pain often wakes me at night.

I had both ultrasounded; no significant pathology, certainly nowhere near enough to cause the pain I have been suffering. 

Light deadlifts yesterday; two sets of four chin ups today, and last week some chest to wall HS supports (~15"). Just getting in and out of these is a little conditioning workout in itself. Lots of walking. I also do gentle versions of the wall pec. and biceps stretches. Please let us know how you are working with your problems.

[Naldaramjo]

Hi @Kit_L, thanks for sharing what's been going on with you. Thankfully, I'm not at the point where pain wakes me up, and, really, I am nearly pain free. It's only when attempting certain movements that I can feel that I am irritating something. 

Since I don't really know what's going on (do we ever fully?), I have been trying to use shoulder ROM exploration as a form of light meditation. I move really slowly in various directions and carefully monitor when any sort of resistance changes into acute pain. By monitoring the sensations with curiosity, I find that I become less attached to achieving a "result," which in this case would mean an unambiguous sign of progress. 

That said, I believe I've made some progress (hah), I think, but there are still movements that humble me. 

One possibly related observation: when I am lying on my back at night just before going to sleep, I don't feel tension in my shoulders, but when I touch the front deltoids, they appear quite taut. I'm not sure if this is normal for the human body (I've never really paid attention until recently), but I do wonder if it might be related to the speed of my recovery. It's taut in both arms, by the way. Could this be both the biceps and the deltoids under needless tension?

[Naldaramjo]

I am looking for some meditation advice.

I have been meditating for about two years now, with I'd say the last 9 months being the most consistent (nearly every day, and now, sometimes, twice a day). I have read some literature on the topic, and I'd like to have the focus of my practice be present moment awareness - getting to a "no mind" state, free of thought. 

I have often read of experienced meditators' accounts of the development of this state of equanimity. They talk about being able to observe their thoughts rising and falling, as if from a distant vantage point. This seems to me like an important step towards the development of Being, rather thank Thinking.

I have a big problem with this step. I can't seem to develop the distance. Rather, what I instead have observed is that the thoughts that I do become aware of are like weeds with infinitely deep roots. It is as if the thoughts are not rising and falling out of anywhere. They are the substance of my mind.

I realize that most ideas about the mind are probably best understood through metaphors, so I keep on the lookout for books on meditative philosophies that might offer me the metaphors I need to  best step into the present moment. This is what I am asking anyone reading this: what metaphors have worked for you, in encouraging you to move being the mental abstractions of pure consciousness? 

Thanks in advance~

<edit>

I'd say meta-thoughts are the most insidious...thoughts about thoughts

 

[Kit_L]

On 12/28/2019 at 3:14 PM, Naldaramjo said:

I'd like to have the focus of my practice be present moment awareness - getting to a "no mind" state, free of thought. 

Relax more, check your posture (and make sure you have a repeatable process for this), return to whatever is your mediation object (you do not mention what this is; feeling all the sensations of the breath in and out is a common one) and relax more. Let every shred of tension go (do this as a deliberate 'letting go'), then return to the meditation object. In time, a larger space will open up (you can't make this happen); in that space may be the experience of " thoughts rising and falling, as if from a distant vantage point". 

As you relax more, and become closer to the many sensations of breathing, thoughts will naturally slow, become less frequent and insistent, and in time will be seen for what they really are.

[Naldaramjo]

6 hours ago, Kit_L said:

Relax more, check your posture (and make sure you have a repeatable process for this), return to whatever is your mediation object (you do not mention what this is; feeling all the sensations of the breath in and out is a common one) and relax more. Let every shred of tension go (do this as a deliberate 'letting go'), then return to the meditation object. In time, a larger space will open up (you can't make this happen); in that space may be the experience of " thoughts rising and falling, as if from a distant vantage point". 

As you relax more, and become closer to the many sensations of breathing, thoughts will naturally slow, become less frequent and insistent, and in time will be seen for what they really are.

Thank you, @Kit_L. The breath is indeed what I try and focus on. Although sometimes I do explore different sensations in my body, I do try and come back to the breath. 

I appreciate your insight into the process. Onward and forward!

[Kit_L]

I know you're only kidding but no "onward and forward"—that is linear thinking (results gained for effort spent). Until you have this experience, you can't know that your thoughts, presently experienced as 'large' from the thinker's perspective, are a tiny phenomenon in a truly gigantic space. This space defies words and cannot be consciously brought about, in my experience. Relax more; go deeper; feel don't think.

[Naldaramjo]

25 minutes ago, Kit_L said:

I know you're only kidding but no "onward and forward"—that is linear thinking (results gained for effort spent). Until you have this experience, you can't know that your thoughts, presently experienced as 'large' from the thinker's perspective, are a tiny phenomenon in a truly gigantic space. This space defies words and cannot be consciously brought about, in my experience. Relax more; go deeper; feel don't think.

I deliberately avoided the word "upward" to emphasize that I am trying to focus on the process rather than the results.

Your point is well-taken: the big space in which thoughts come and go as they please, it's is not possible to grasp intellectually, only experientially. Thanks for the encouragement, Kit. 

[Nathan]

On 12/28/2019 at 1:14 PM, Naldaramjo said:

I am looking for some meditation advice.

So much to unpack in that post. A simple reply, such as Kit's, is probably best, but since you already got that... I will just make a few comments.

On 12/28/2019 at 1:14 PM, Naldaramjo said:

I have read some literature on the topic, and I'd like to have the focus of my practice be present moment awareness - getting to a "no mind" state, free of thought. 

Assuming that such a state does exist, is being "free of thought" really better than a state where thoughts arise? What is the difference between the two? And who/what is it that becomes "free of thought"? What is the "present moment"? Are you sure such a thing as the "present" even exists? (Lots of abstract talk here, which doesn't actually clearly tell us a whole lot about your goals. Potentially, it doesn't tell you much about your goals, either.)

On 12/28/2019 at 1:14 PM, Naldaramjo said:

I have often read of experienced meditators' accounts of the development of this state of equanimity. They talk about being able to observe their thoughts rising and falling, as if from a distant vantage point. This seems to me like an important step towards the development of Being, rather thank Thinking.

Again, all of these words can mean different things. Observing thought arise and pass away could be a state of equanimity, but not necessarily. In either case, this would not be "free of thought" since they are still arising and passing. Also, what is "being" and does it exclude "thinking"?

On 12/28/2019 at 1:14 PM, Naldaramjo said:

I have a big problem with this step. I can't seem to develop the distance. Rather, what I instead have observed is that the thoughts that I do become aware of are like weeds with infinitely deep roots. It is as if the thoughts are not rising and falling out of anywhere. They are the substance of my mind.

My guess is that you are observing thoughts coming and going all the time. A thought comes, you notice, let it go, and return to the object of meditation. But it was nothing significant, so it doesn't matter. Then a big one comes along that you get wrapped up in, and 10 minutes later you remember you were meditating. And then you tell yourself about how you're a failed meditator  I'd also bet that, at least some of the time, you are still keeping up with the object of meditation in the background while "thinking about thinking." How is that possible? Who/what is thinking? Who/what is keeping up with the object? Who/what is breathing for you while you're all jumbled up in such a mess? 

On 12/28/2019 at 1:14 PM, Naldaramjo said:

in encouraging you to move being the mental abstractions of pure consciousness? 

I'm not even sure what that means 

You don't need to answer any of these questions here. They are ideas for you to think about, and maybe some encouragement to question what it is you think you're actually working toward. As a final piece of advice, whenever you feel like you have no control over what's happening during your sit, just let the sit unfold and observe how your mind reacts. This is your chance to learn about your mind. Let it get lost in the thoughts. It will come back. Let it do what it will do. Just be curious and observe. Learn what you can. This is meditation 

[Kit_L]

17 hours ago, Nathan said:

This is meditation 

Happy New Year, and Happy New Decade!

[Naldaramjo]

Was my post really so vague that it necessitated such an unpacking? I admit that many spiritual terms are fraught with ambiguity, but I hadn't realized that mine were so unclear...

On 1/3/2020 at 7:31 PM, Nathan said:

You don't need to answer any of these questions here. They are ideas for you to think about, and maybe some encouragement to question what it is you think you're actually working toward. As a final piece of advice, whenever you feel like you have no control over what's happening during your sit, just let the sit unfold and observe how your mind reacts. This is your chance to learn about your mind. Let it get lost in the thoughts. It will come back. Let it do what it will do. Just be curious and observe. Learn what you can. This is meditation

I'm sure you can appreciate that there are many different approaches. At least one approach I know of (The Mind Illuminated, Step 2) views focusing the "monkey mind" to be the starting point of meditation, only after which can significant "progress" (as defined by movement through the various stages of mental mastery) be made.

You've given me lots to think about, and so, thank you for that, I think. I appreciate the reminder to approach the practice with equanimity. 

 

[Naldaramjo]

On 1/4/2020 at 1:24 PM, Kit_L said:

Happy New Year, and Happy New Decade!

Happy New Decade, @Kit_L and @Nathan!

[Nathan]

2 hours ago, Naldaramjo said:

Was my post really so vague that it necessitated such an unpacking? I admit that many spiritual terms are fraught with ambiguity, but I hadn't realized that mine were so unclear...

It's nothing to take too seriously  I just saw a lot of concepts in there, and it's so easy to get tied up in our own concepts so it's always good to question them. In particular, it's easy to repeat things we hear a lot like "being in the present", "bare attention", "empty mind", etc. but often we haven't even really thought about what they mean (or if they mean anything). By "we" I mostly mean "I" 

2 hours ago, Naldaramjo said:

I'm sure you can appreciate that there are many different approaches. At least one approach I know of (The Mind Illuminated, Step 2) views focusing the "monkey mind" to be the starting point of meditation, only after which can significant "progress" (as defined by movement through the various stages of mental mastery) be made.

Oh, for sure. I said "this is meditation" - no "only" there. What I mentioned is just one technique, similar to what has been called "non-directive", "do nothing", "open awareness", etc., although those also each vary slightly. TMI is meditation too  It's a system with a heavy concentration (samatha) focus, based largely on the elephant model (Asanga), and one of the downsides is that it can result in over-efforting (in the beginning, in particular). What I mentioned can be a good antidote to apply from time to time, or when you just need a bit of a break in general. (I dare say most of us have more of an issue with efforting too much, as opposed to letting go too much )

Happy New [Moment/Year/Decade]!

[Naldaramjo]

14 minutes ago, Nathan said:

It's nothing to take too seriously  I just saw a lot of concepts in there, and it's so easy to get tied up in our own concepts so it's always good to question them. In particular, it's easy to repeat things we hear a lot like "being in the present", "bare attention", "empty mind", etc. but often we haven't even really thought about what they mean (or if they mean anything). By "we" I mostly mean "I" 

I see what you mean...do you often reflect on the words that you use to describe your spiritual goals? As you've continued to meditate, have you found words to be sufficient in describing what it is you are seeking/discovering?

18 minutes ago, Nathan said:

Oh, for sure. I said "this is meditation" - no "only" there. What I mentioned is just one technique, similar to what has been called "non-directive", "do nothing", "open awareness", etc., although those also each vary slightly. TMI is meditation too  It's a system with a heavy concentration (samatha) focus, based largely on the elephant model (Asanga), and one of the downsides is that it can result in over-efforting (in the beginning, in particular). What I mentioned can be a good antidote to apply from time to time, or when you just need a bit of a break in general. (I dare say most of us have more of an issue with efforting too much, as opposed to letting go too much )

I suffer from lack of concentration. I can't enjoy the things I love most without my attention wandering. Classical music, for example, often demands attention over an extended period of time, and, even with music I know and love, I find myself drifting off. New pieces (like some big Mahler symphony, by all accounts worth the effort!) are very challenging. Reading, especially more challenging prose, is similar. And if I play a video game I enjoy, my mind will begin working through negative thought patterns in extreme. Perhaps it's not the fact that thoughts are always present (although that is part of it, to be sure), but just that what thoughts persist are constantly negative. 

So, I just want the ability to attend my mind to something and that thing alone.

Not sure if this is any clearer. I find it quite challenging to organize my thoughts about this outside of the context of a conversation. 

[Nathan]

2 hours ago, Naldaramjo said:

I see what you mean...do you often reflect on the words that you use to describe your spiritual goals? As you've continued to meditate, have you found words to be sufficient in describing what it is you are seeking/discovering?

I'm not sure if I would say often, but reflecting on words and their meanings is something I tend to do naturally. Probably part of why I've always liked languages  I doubt words will ever be sufficient, but they are perhaps the best we have for general communication  When discussing things like meditative states, though, it's important to establish how words are being used since we all have our own interpretations.

2 hours ago, Naldaramjo said:

Perhaps it's not the fact that thoughts are always present (although that is part of it, to be sure), but just that what thoughts persist are constantly negative.

Well, thoughts may indeed grow sparser with time. I think if you want to address the content of your thoughts, though, then doing so (more) directly will probably be much more effective than trying to eliminate thoughts. I could be way off, but if what you said is true, then it's likely you have a habit of negative thinking. (Like most of us! ) You might want to look into the Brahmaviharas, and in particular, metta, or loving-kindness. Generosity as a practice can also be very powerful. Cultivating positive mind states is incredibly valuable, because there will almost always be a mind state, and if it's not positive it will usually be negative  On the plus side, metta practice can be a powerful concentration practice, as well. Goenka will give a small intro to metta on the final day of your retreat, but I would suggest spending some time looking into it further on your own. His introduction didn't really resonate much with me, personally.

[Naldaramjo]

Did Goenka speak personally? Or was it a recorded video introduction? I can't imagine that he can attend every single Vipassana retreat...

[jaja]

IIRC Goenka is dead. At retreats they played recorded speeches/instructions.

[Nathan]

jaja is correct. Goenka passed away in 2013. Basically all of the instructions, talks, chanting, etc. at the retreats are recordings of Goenka.

[Naldaramjo]

Ah...shows how much I know about Vipassana😅 
 

[Naldaramjo]

On 1/3/2020 at 7:31 PM, Nathan said:

Assuming that such a state does exist, is being "free of thought" really better than a state where thoughts arise? What is the difference between the two? And who/what is it that becomes "free of thought"? What is the "present moment"? Are you sure such a thing as the "present" even exists? (Lots of abstract talk here, which doesn't actually clearly tell us a whole lot about your goals. Potentially, it doesn't tell you much about your goals, either.)

I've thought about this a bit. My general goals don't relate so much to the content of my mind as to my emotional reaction to it. Some things that bring a strong emotional reaction are:

- pain in my body (and the worrisome thoughts that are very powerful)
- negativity towards friends (it's often a back and forth between guilt for and justification of the negative thoughts)

General goals would be:

- improved Samatha (concentration)
- equanimity towards the occasional pain in my body (often my hostile reaction to pain ends up making it worse, not psychosomatically,  but rather due to the way in which I approach stretching and flexibility when in this state)
- loving more and expecting less in my relationships; reacting not from need but from wisdom; recognizing when a relationship is unbalanced and just letting it be rather than trying to "even it out"

To be honest, I am not even certain what Vipassana means in the context of the subjective experience of meditation, but I am excited to learn. 

[Pat (pogo69)]

22 hours ago, Naldaramjo said:

Classical music, for example, often demands attention over an extended period of time, and, even with music I know and love, I find myself drifting off. New pieces (like some big Mahler symphony, by all accounts worth the effort!) are very challenging.

Interesting!  If you are not yet familiar, you might try some contemporary pieces for a "next level" challenge?

Deceptively simple individual parts, yet wonderfully complex collectively, with phase-shifted polyrhythms in minimalist composer Steve Reich's 'Drumming':

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doJk4yPwJDk

If you think that listening to this requires intense concentration and stamina, imagine being one of the performers.

Also, Krzysztof Penderecki's 'Threnody to the Victims of Hiroshima' for 52 string instruments:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dp3BlFZWJNA

Penderecki ostensibly composed his "sonoristic" piece (Polish avant-garde composition style that focuses on timbre, dynamics etc) to continue the development of a "new musical language".  But having heard it for the first time (instead of it existing only in his imagination), he renamed it from 8'37" to dedicate it to the Hiroshima victims.

A hauntingly beautiful, terrifyingly visceral piece.

Slight digression from the primary topic of meditation.  But I find (most) any discussion of music compelling, so I am fascinated by the intersection of music/meditation/mindfulness.

 

[Naldaramjo]

5 hours ago, pogo69 said:

Interesting!  If you are not yet familiar, you might try some contemporary pieces for a "next level" challenge?

Deceptively simple individual parts, yet wonderfully complex collectively, with phase-shifted polyrhythms in minimalist composer Steve Reich's 'Drumming':

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doJk4yPwJDk

Fascinating music, although not something I'd necessarily (voluntarily) listen to again...

I picked up the form of the piece pretty quickly, which was likely much easier than it would have been were I merely listening to an audio file. Incredible how many different rhythmic combinations were waiting to be realized within the ostinato rhythm. The most mystifying part to me was when the two ostinato players subtly phase-shifted. I can't imagine how challenging that would be for percussionists - to deliberately de-sync from one another. 
 

5 hours ago, pogo69 said:

Also, Krzysztof Penderecki's 'Threnody to the Victims of Hiroshima' for 52 string instruments:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dp3BlFZWJNA

Penderecki ostensibly composed his "sonoristic" piece (Polish avant-garde composition style that focuses on timbre, dynamics etc) to continue the development of a "new musical language".  But having heard it for the first time (instead of it existing only in his imagination), he renamed it from 8'37" to dedicate it to the Hiroshima victims.

A hauntingly beautiful, terrifyingly visceral piece.

 I know this piece...it is something else, eh? I first learned of and heard it under the "Threnody..." title, and, upon hearing that the title was applied later, could hardly believe it. There are sounds in this piece that seem so well suited to the horrors of a nuclear strike. I could have sworn that I heard an air raid siren...

If you are a fan of Penderecki, Dream of Jacob is eerie and beautiful. His Capriccio for Violin and Orchestra is also a monster of a piece.

If you're truly a masochist, you could check out Finnissy. If you have any familiarity with piano sheet music notation, the score will look completely outrageous. Possibly even to the layperson...

[Pat (pogo69)]

17 hours ago, Naldaramjo said:

Fascinating music, although not something I'd necessarily (voluntarily) listen to again...

Not an uncommon reaction, I suspect.  My partner posted it on Facebook a few years ago, with a message something along the lines of "everyone should listen to this once in their lifetime".  I rather enjoyed re-listening to it, but it had been a while.

17 hours ago, Naldaramjo said:

If you are a fan of Penderecki, Dream of Jacob is eerie and beautiful. His Capriccio for Violin and Orchestra is also a monster of a piece.

Guilty as charged.  

I have rather a thing for Polish composers.  Lutosławski and Górecki, also.  I think it initially stemmed from playing the Classical Guitar, as one of my formative and strongest compositional loves was Alexandre Tansman, also Polish.  His pieces for the guitar are lovely, and mostly reasonably playable for someone who doesn't practise nearly enough.

18 hours ago, Naldaramjo said:

If you're truly a masochist, you could check out Finnissy.

Also, guilty as charged!  Particularly with respect to music.  New to me, so I look forward to it.

18 hours ago, Naldaramjo said:

If you have any familiarity with piano sheet music notation, the score will look completely outrageous. Possibly even to the layperson

As above.  Yes, to familiarity with sheet music notation.  Not so much, the piano.  Like many (most?) guitarists, I still have to translate the bass clef in real time.

[Nathan]

On 1/7/2020 at 10:28 AM, Naldaramjo said:

I've thought about this a bit. My general goals don't relate so much to the content of my mind as to my emotional reaction to it.

Excellent. That's pretty much the whole point of many types of meditation - to observe how our minds react to things. In fact, vipassana (almost) literally means "seeing clearly." (Samatha helps establish the conditions to do this more efficiently.) I think you're on the right path. Just gotta keep going