Nerve Stretches

[Matt Hill]

I recently attended a FRC seminar… Interesting event. Very similar to ST methodology in some ways, with a few fancy names and a slightly greater emphasis on active mobility (pretty cool) and less emphasis on sensations/posture (a little less cool). 

The lead instructor mentioned something to the effect of  "you shouldn’t stretch nerves, unless you’re a trained therapist”.

I asked the instructor what he meant by this exactly, but he replied with a rather unconvincing “it’s a freaking nerve man”… I believe he was a bit sleep deprived/jet lagged, so I decided to cut him some slack and leave it at that.

 

This seems to run contrary to how things are done here. As far as I’m aware, we actively hunt after some nerve stretches (e.g. single leg downward dog seems to have a sciatic nerve component... I've also felt some 'nerve stuff' in some of the upper body stretches this system uses)

 

What are the potential risks involved in nerve stretching and what is the correct approach to mitigate these risks?

[jaja]

There's a nerve component in some of ST exercises, but we need to be extra cautious. The correct approach to mitigate risk in this method is always the same: move slowly and pay attention. At a workshop Kit said: “If you move slowly it's impossible to hurt yourself”. I personally don't know if it's actually impossible, but for sure it's damn hard because you have the option to stop when something feels wrong. This also mean you have to be fully in control of the situation, so pay extra attention in the setup of the exercise.

As far as potential risks of nerve stretching I leave the answer to those more knowledgeable than me. From my direct experience I can say I once had a tingling sensation going for few days, as a result of a non-careful stretch in a really vulnerable position.

[Nathan]

Hi Matt,

3 hours ago, Matt Hill said:

As far as I’m aware, we actively hunt after some nerve stretches (e.g. single leg downward dog seems to have a sciatic nerve component... I've also felt some 'nerve stuff' in some of the upper body stretches this system uses)

We don't actively hunt after any nerve stretches in ST. We acknowledge that the nerve component is rather significant in certain stretches, and is thus more likely to be a limiting factor. But you should never be actively trying to elicit a sensation in a nerve, and you should always be prepared to stop if you feel a strong sensation in anything other than a muscle. (That is not to say that other tissues cannot/should not be stretched. It is okay to stretch certain ligaments to some extent, for example.)

When you feel "nerve stuff," that usually means that something is compressing a nerve, or a nerve might be "stuck." You need to work with such stretches carefully and mindfully. By doing so, you will eventually free up the nerve or reduce compression, but this is because of increased flexibility, suppleness, etc. and not because you stretched the nerve and made it longer. For example, the first time I did the stick pec stretch, I compressed the nerves in the thoracic outlet because I was not being mindful. I couldn't bend my right arm for a few days following. This was because my pec minor, scalenes, etc. were so tight that they squeezed on the nerves - not because the nerves were short or needed to be stretched. My arm is perfectly fine now, and I can do the stick pec stretch without issue, but this is because I loosened those surrounding tissues, and not because I stretched the nerves. But I did many mindful pec minor stretches in the process, and you might think I was stretching the nerves if you didn't know better - or if you wanted to sound sensational. Hint, hint  

3 hours ago, Matt Hill said:

What are the potential risks involved in nerve stretching and what is the correct approach to mitigate these risks?

I kind of addressed this above, but basically what @jaja said: move slowly, with full awareness in the body. If you do this, you will not push too far. Additionally, you may find this article helpful/interesting: WANT AN AMAZING PIKE? YOU BETTER START FLOSSING…YOUR NERVES.

[AlexanderEgebak]

2 hours ago, Nathan said:

Hi Matt,

We don't actively hunt after any nerve stretches in ST. We acknowledge that the nerve component is rather significant in certain stretches, and is thus more likely to be a limiting factor. But you should never be actively trying to elicit a sensation in a nerve, and you should always be prepared to stop if you feel a strong sensation in anything other than a muscle. (That is not to say that other tissues cannot/should not be stretched. It is okay to stretch certain ligaments to some extent, for example.)

When you feel "nerve stuff," that usually means that something is compressing a nerve, or a nerve might be "stuck." You need to work with such stretches carefully and mindfully. By doing so, you will eventually free up the nerve or reduce compression, but this is because of increased flexibility, suppleness, etc. and not because you stretched the nerve and made it longer. For example, the first time I did the stick pec stretch, I compressed the nerves in the thoracic outlet because I was not being mindful. I couldn't bend my right arm for a few days following. This was because my pec minor, scalenes, etc. were so tight that they squeezed on the nerves - not because the nerves were short or needed to be stretched. My arm is perfectly fine now, and I can do the stick pec stretch without issue, but this is because I loosened those surrounding tissues, and not because I stretched the nerves. But I did many mindful pec minor stretches in the process, and you might think I was stretching the nerves if you didn't know better - or if you wanted to sound sensational. Hint, hint  

I kind of addressed this above, but basically what @jaja said: move slowly, with full awareness in the body. If you do this, you will not push too far. Additionally, you may find this article helpful/interesting: WANT AN AMAZING PIKE? YOU BETTER START FLOSSING…YOUR NERVES.

Great article. I think I have a slight nerve entrapment in my right leg due to involuntary shaking of my leg after reaching max pike depth but it slightly releases after a few sets. The sensation is also closer to the calves than the hamstrings.

[Matt Hill]

6 hours ago, Nathan said:

Hi Matt,

We don't actively hunt after any nerve stretches in ST. We acknowledge that the nerve component is rather significant in certain stretches, and is thus more likely to be a limiting factor. But you should never be actively trying to elicit a sensation in a nerve, and you should always be prepared to stop if you feel a strong sensation in anything other than a muscle. (That is not to say that other tissues cannot/should not be stretched. It is okay to stretch certain ligaments to some extent, for example.)

 

I feel this is just semantics. Perhaps I poorly phrased what I wanted to say. I more so meant that sometimes 'nerve stuff' does come up and if it doesn't leave any negative impact (massive tingling), it can be stretched through in this system.

Quote

 

When you feel "nerve stuff," that usually means that something is compressing a nerve, or a nerve might be "stuck." You need to work with such stretches carefully and mindfully. By doing so, you will eventually free up the nerve or reduce compression, but this is because of increased flexibility, suppleness, etc. and not because you stretched the nerve and made it longer. For example, the first time I did the stick pec stretch, I compressed the nerves in the thoracic outlet because I was not being mindful. I couldn't bend my right arm for a few days following. This was because my pec minor, scalenes, etc. were so tight that they squeezed on the nerves - not because the nerves were short or needed to be stretched. My arm is perfectly fine now, and I can do the stick pec stretch without issue, but this is because I loosened those surrounding tissues, and not because I stretched the nerves. But I did many mindful pec minor stretches in the process, and you might think I was stretching the nerves if you didn't know better - or if you wanted to sound sensational. Hint, hint  

 

Yes, I figured it was less to do with stretching the nerves and more with the surrounding structures.

Quote

I kind of addressed this above, but basically what @jaja said: move slowly, with full awareness in the body. If you do this, you will not push too far. Additionally, you may find this article helpful/interesting: WANT AN AMAZING PIKE? YOU BETTER START FLOSSING…YOUR NERVES.

 I've used some of Jen's nerve flossing before, quite useful.

This was exactly the instructor was trying to say was bad - a gymnastic pike position. He was against any straight leg forward bend for that matter, because of the sciatic nerve involvement. He advocated that general population should avoid this kind of position and it should only be used by circus artists.

Still leaves me a little puzzled as to what he was getting at.

[Nathan]

17 hours ago, Matt Hill said:

I feel this is just semantics. Perhaps I poorly phrased what I wanted to say. I more so meant that sometimes 'nerve stuff' does come up and if it doesn't leave any negative impact (massive tingling), it can be stretched through in this system.

I think the conversation may have been unclear since "stretch" can be both active and passive. I read it as active, i.e. intentionally place a nerve under stretch. It seems you meant it in the passive sense, i.e. avoid doing a position that places the nerve under stretch, despite that not being the intended purpose. However, we still certainly don't hunt after such stretches. We also don't actively avoid a stretch simply because it has a nerve component, though.

17 hours ago, Matt Hill said:

This was exactly the instructor was trying to say was bad - a gymnastic pike position. He was against any straight leg forward bend for that matter, because of the sciatic nerve involvement. He advocated that general population should avoid this kind of position and it should only be used by circus artists.

Sorry, that wasn't really clear to me before. I think the important question here is: could the position be achieved without stressing the nerve if one had perfect flexibility? If the answer is yes, then the position is not stretching the nerve. The flexibility/mobility/suppleness/etc. deficiencies of the individual are causing the effect. Take a look at this:

And then tell me how to stretch anything without stretching a nerve  Yes, I'm being a bit dramatic, but I think Dr. Spina is too. I think what he probably really wants to say is that the vast majority of people ("general population") will have limitations that make the full, straight-legged pike a sub-optimal option for stretching the hamstrings, and that's accurate. The pike is an end position in ST as well, and is not generally used as a stretch, but rather as a display of flexibility. ST preferentially chooses bent-leg positions (or bent-to-straight movements) for less flexible people, so I think we're mostly in agreement. I suppose you could say that ST is just a bit more flexible and open minded 

[Matt Hill]

7 hours ago, Nathan said:

Sorry, that wasn't really clear to me before. 

My apologies, I wrote most of this pre-morning coffee and I think it was a little bit incoherent/ what I wrote was incongruent with what I wanted to express.

Quote

I think what he probably really wants to say is that the vast majority of people ("general population") will have limitations that make the full, straight-legged pike a sub-optimal option for stretching the hamstrings, and that's accurate.

Phrased like this, it makes a lot of sense. 

 

Thanks for your thoughts and putting this into perspective of the ST system for me!

 

[Nathan]

10 hours ago, Matt Hill said:

Thanks for your thoughts and putting this into perspective of the ST system for me!

No problem! Glad I could help!

By the way, Dr. Spina is a really interesting and smart guy with lots of great things to say, but there’s a fundamental difference in what he’s offering compared to ST. He offers a (jargon-riddled ?) toolbox for people to use to safely and effectively increase flexibility/mobility. ST offers a similar toolbox, but it also empowers people in the process by encouraging them to reconnect with their bodies and take the practice into their own hands and make it their own, informed by that self-knowledge. (That’s really greatly oversimplified, but I’m responding on my phone so forgive me for leaving it at that!)

[Matt Hill]

5 hours ago, Nathan said:

By the way, Dr. Spina is a really interesting and smart guy with lots of great things to say, but there’s a fundamental difference in what he’s offering compared to ST. He offers a (jargon-riddled ?) toolbox for people to use to safely and effectively increase flexibility/mobility. ST offers a similar toolbox, but it also empowers people in the process by encouraging them to reconnect with their bodies and take the practice into their own hands and make it their own, informed by that self-knowledge. (That’s really greatly oversimplified, but I’m responding on my phone so forgive me for leaving it at that!)

Yes. I understand what you mean, that is what I took away from the workshop I did with him, compared to my time with Kit.

ST system is a little more complete from my perspective. The roots in eastern philosophy shine through, which really make a huge difference in this practice. Focus on breathing, relaxation and sensations are where it is at.

FRC was good at explaining principles which can be applied creatively to solve problems, allowing experimentation in multiple areas with a little thought... But I agree, lots of jargon and (what felt like) unnecessary deviations from pre-existing terminology.

Perhaps the ST teacher training delves more into principles which can be applied? Regardless of it does or doesn't, I plan to take that in the near future.

 

Both are great systems with a lot of similarities and some distinct differences. I think the areas where they don't overlap complement each other very nicely.

[Nathan]

15 minutes ago, Matt Hill said:

ST system is a little more complete from my perspective. The roots in eastern philosophy shine through, which really make a huge difference in this practice. Focus on breathing, relaxation and sensations are where it is at.

I agree. The FRC audience is more clearly defined (limited in scope), which has both pros and cons. ST has something for everyone, but lots of choices can make it difficult for some to decide where to go. You can go very deep with pretty much any practice, including FRC, but ST offers that path already, while you would have to forge your own way and intentionally blur the lines of the system with FRC.

15 minutes ago, Matt Hill said:

Perhaps the ST teacher training delves more into principles which can be applied? Regardless of it does or doesn't, I plan to take that in the near future.

The principles remain the same, but the teacher training presents them with an emphasis on understanding them clearly and thoroughly enough to teach them to others. You can just kind of get it and that's enough to incorporate something into your own practice, but you have to really own it to effectively teach others. There is a lot of self-study required prior to the training, and that will help too. If you're just interested in different applications, though, the Deeper Into the Stretch workshop might be what you're actually looking for. It's kind of like the cutting edge or plus alpha of ST