Leg dexterity for foot to face without hand assistance. *external rotation*

[perplexed]

Hi everyone. I made a post a while back about pigeon pose with a 90 degree front leg and kit's advanced p pose. Anyway I have made great progress with my external rotation range, so thank you all! I can lie on my back and easily bring my foot to my face.

The thing is, the ultimate goal is to be able to bring my foot to my face, in a controlled manner, without using my hands. I will link a GIF of bj penn, well known for his leg dexterity, swiveling his foot by his face effortlessly. I think I have enough passive ROM, but without my hands my leg dexterity is bad. I'll attach a pic of my max external rotation without using my hands. If I can train to mimic bj's level of leg dexterity, I will be ecstatic! I don't know how to accomplish this, though. Can't thank you all enough! 

One thing that may or may not be a factor. For some reason, it is still difficult for me to sit cross legged. My outer hip muscles (the TFL and glute med area, not piriformis) tense up hard for no reason and prevent my knees from dropping. If I do some pissing dog holds and exhaust the muscles, this issue disappears, but it is only a temporary fix. I have to do pissing dog every time to get around the tensing issue.

Here is the GIF of bj penn:

https://goo.gl/images/KL1UVv

Here is another video. Bj can also ballistically throw his leg behind his head

https://youtu.be/COd4P5Srl6o

 

 

 

 

 

[Nathan]

Hey @perplexed,

Good to hear you've been working and making progress!

What you are asking about is referred to by a number of different names, but I generally use "active flexibility." Simply put, the problem is a lack of strength, and specifically, strength at/near the end-ROM position. Applying an external load, whether that be the body's weight via gravity or something else, and relaxing further into the stretch is a great way of increasing our passive flexibility/ROM, but it does not build strength in lengthened/shortened positions unless we use additional techniques.

Contract-Relax is one such technique, but the way C-R is generally used in ST is not geared toward developing extreme levels of end-ROM strength. You will need a more direct/focused approach. You will basically want to use some kind of quasi-isometric contractions in the end-ROM position, a la Emmet's "end-range closing" or what is referred to as "compression work" in gymnastics strength training. You can also use more active movements with a larger ROM, but the focus needs to remain on building strength in the muscles that are shortening, and in that most shortened position. For the piriformis stretch, this would look very similar to the usual stretch, but the emphasis will be on pulling yourself into the stretch actively with the shortening muscles, rather than relaxing into it.

2 hours ago, perplexed said:

For some reason, it is still difficult for me to sit cross legged.

A comfortable cross-legged position requires the cooperation of many muscles - not simply the piriformis  The holds that you are doing (which are a form of end-range closing, btw) are not making it easier because they are exhausting the muscles, but because you are lengthening the adductors/groin muscles. I suggest working the tailor pose alongside your piriformis stretching. My guess is that you'll see some good improvements in no time.

[perplexed]

@Nathan this sounds exactly what I've been looking for! To utilize end- range-closing, would that be starting in a figure four stretch and then contracting hard for 10 seconds, trying to bring my foot to my face, without using my hands? Or would I use my hands to slowly bring my foot to my face while contracting with the stretch for 10 seconds?

[Nathan]

5 hours ago, perplexed said:

To utilize end- range-closing, would that be starting in a figure four stretch and then contracting hard for 10 seconds, trying to bring my foot to my face, without using my hands? Or would I use my hands to slowly bring my foot to my face while contracting with the stretch for 10 seconds?

As I mentioned, you can approach it a variety of different ways.

To use the quasi-isometric ("quasi" because there can/should be some movement) method, you will begin by initiating the stretch somehow, whether via body-positioning or using your hands or some other implement. You are strengthening the end of the ROM so you start near that point. Then, like you said, contract hard. You can assist with gravity/hands/etc. but the point is to use the shortened muscles to do the work, so assistance should be kept to a minimum. A few sets of 10s is probably fine to start.

Another option is to use isometric contractions against an "immovable" object, which is essentially the C-R technique but used with stronger, longer contractions. This allows you to use the isometric contraction at different parts of the ROM, and provides extra tactile/proprioceptive feedback.

And then, finally, you can also use more dynamic strengthening movements (think weight lifting at end of ROM), but this will be harder to perform and progress effectively because you will be working with small amounts of weight and tiny adjustments. Bands can work nicely for this.

[perplexed]

57 minutes ago, Nathan said:

As I mentioned, you can approach it a variety of different ways.

To use the quasi-isometric ("quasi" because there can/should be some movement) method, you will begin by initiating the stretch somehow, whether via body-positioning or using your hands or some other implement. You are strengthening the end of the ROM so you start near that point. Then, like you said, contract hard. You can assist with gravity/hands/etc. but the point is to use the shortened muscles to do the work, so assistance should be kept to a minimum. A few sets of 10s is probably fine to start.

Another option is to use isometric contractions against an "immovable" object, which is essentially the C-R technique but used with stronger, longer contractions. This allows you to use the isometric contraction at different parts of the ROM, and provides extra tactile/proprioceptive feedback.

And then, finally, you can also use more dynamic strengthening movements (think weight lifting at end of ROM), but this will be harder to perform and progress effectively because you will be working with small amounts of weight and tiny adjustments. Bands can work nicely for this.

I see. I think I will program as follows:

2-3x per week

Go into advanced p pose- 4 reps of 10 second contractions, trying to lift front foot off floor and pulling my trunk toward my foot with straight lower back. 5 second rest. Repeat for 3 sets

Go into figure four stretch. Pull my foot to my face. While holding foot against my face, I will contract as hard as I can for 10 seconds ( direction of contraction is foot toward face) while slowly stopping assisting from my hands. At first, by the end of the contraction my foot will be pretty far from my head, as I don't have the end range strength yet. After 10 seconds, use my hands to pull foot back against face and rest for 5 seconds. Repeat for 4 reps. 3 sets total.

What do you think of this routine Nathan? 

 

 

[Nathan]

You can always add more later. It's better to start with less.

13 minutes ago, perplexed said:

2-3x per week

Start with 1-2x per week. Do it once and see how you feel over the next few days. If you feel good after 3 days, then go ahead and add another session. Do that for a few weeks and see how you progress before considering adding a third.

16 minutes ago, perplexed said:

4 reps of 10 second contractions

Start with 3 reps of 10 seconds. Make them intense enough that you don't need a fourth 

22 minutes ago, perplexed said:

Repeat for 3 sets

Again, start with less. If less is effective, then why do more? Try 2 sets on your first two sessions and see how it goes. Then add the third set if you feel it's needed.

29 minutes ago, perplexed said:

Go into figure four stretch.

The figure four stretch is just a different version of the piriformis stretch. Pick one or the other and start there. Either is fine, so perhaps try them both and see which feels more intuitive/beneficial for you, and then stick with that one. Reassess your progress after a few (3-4) weeks, at which point you can switch, or even add another if you feel it's necessary.

And remember that you are strengthening the muscle at its weakest position. Progress will take time. Perseverance and consistency will lead to results. Trying to rush will likely lead to injury, which will delay progress, at best.

[perplexed]

1 hour ago, Nathan said:

You can always add more later. It's better to start with less.

Start with 1-2x per week. Do it once and see how you feel over the next few days. If you feel good after 3 days, then go ahead and add another session. Do that for a few weeks and see how you progress before considering adding a third.

Start with 3 reps of 10 seconds. Make them intense enough that you don't need a fourth 

Again, start with less. If less is effective, then why do more? Try 2 sets on your first two sessions and see how it goes. Then add the third set if you feel it's needed.

The figure four stretch is just a different version of the piriformis stretch. Pick one or the other and start there. Either is fine, so perhaps try them both and see which feels more intuitive/beneficial for you, and then stick with that one. Reassess your progress after a few (3-4) weeks, at which point you can switch, or even add another if you feel it's necessary.

And remember that you are strengthening the muscle at its weakest position. Progress will take time. Perseverance and consistency will lead to results. Trying to rush will likely lead to injury, which will delay progress, at best.

Ok cool I'll modify the plan according to your suggestions. Thanks Nathan for taking the time to help me! My jiu jitsu guard will owe a lot to you and everyone else on this awesome forum!

[Nathan]

No problem! Let us know how it goes!