forearm mechanics question and tendonitis problem

[Vilgefortz]

Hello, i'm at a loss here. Tried to get russian push-ups for over a year now and recently tuck front lever pull ups and i'm pretty much where i started because of tendonitis. I tried tricep extension push ups on my knees as a progression but those gave me tendonitis as well and they feel very funny in my elbow. I can hold 15 sec tuck planche with fully locked arms and protracted scapula and 13 sec tuck front lever with straight back and straight arms if that has any relevance and can do 10-15 dips 10-15 pull-ups but i mostly trained straight arm stuff for the past 6 months.

I have two questions:

1. Do pull-ups and push-ups strengthen the forearm in the same way as do lever pulls and triceps extensions? Cause then i can just go progression towards one arm pull-up and push-up and expect good results at the end of it, but i'm afraid it's the wrong route.

2. Is there any way to avoid tendonitis like this? It never gives me any signs, the lever pull ups were pain free and after a couple of days i start to feel a slight discomfort near the elbow and by that time it's already too late. Whatever i do, even if i take a break, the dull pain slowly turns into tendonitis over the next few days that lasts ~1 month. I always stretch my forearms before working out and warm up properly.

btw this is the russian push up https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4Vpme2Oi74 and this is the triceps extension https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYgVTinbx_A

[Nathan]

Hey Vilgefortz,

1 hour ago, Vilgefortz said:

Do pull-ups and push-ups strengthen the forearm in the same way as do lever pulls and triceps extensions?

I'm not sure if you really meant to say forearm, since none of these really target the forearm. Of course they all use the forearm to grip.

Working towards the one-arm pull-up will help your front lever pull-up to an extent since you'll still be strengthening the lats and other general pulling muscles, but the retraction requirement is different for horizontal pulling, which emphasizes the traps/rhomboids/etc. That's why you generally want to have both a vertical and horizontal pull for balance.

The goals of push-ups and tricep extensions are completely different. One is meant to work the pushing muscles (primarily the pecs), while the other is trying to actually target the triceps. Of course you'll use the triceps in push-ups, but you are not targeting them. That said, I'd question whether you actually need direct triceps work. General pushing strength will probably be more than adequate in most cases. I just tried those Russian push-ups and they were very easy for me. I do no direct triceps work.

1 hour ago, Vilgefortz said:

Is there any way to avoid tendonitis like this? ... Whatever i do, even if i take a break, the dull pain slowly turns into tendonitis over the next few days that lasts ~1 month.

We can't say anything without knowing a lot more details, but my guess is that you're never actually letting it fully heal. Tendonitis can take a long, long time to fully heal, and most people will return to their normal activities long before that happens. But yes, there is a lot more that you can do beyond stretching and warming up. I recommend reading over this post, as well as the original article that it links to.

Edit: One other thing to note is that not having the requisite flexibility for a movement is going to make you work a lot harder to achieve it. A lot of people develop elbow issues from the transition of muscle-ups, and a lot of that has to do with a flexibility deficit that makes it a lot more stressful to exert force with their elbows that far behind them. Those Russian push-ups actually seem quite similar to the transition of a muscle-up, so you might want to consider adding some German hang and skin the cats to your menu.

[Vilgefortz]

Hey Nathan, thanks for the advice. I already do the tuck version of skin the cat as a warm-up and have decent shoulder flexibility.

Since russian push ups are easy for you, what would you say are some benchmarks in pushing strength that i should aim for? The reason i want to do them is cause they're at the very bottom of the super slow muscle-up at a bar progression and that's the coolest thing ever invented by man!

Thanks again!

That article you just linked should be on tv commercials for the whole world. It would bankrupt drug stores.

[Nathan]

Hey Vilgefortz,

Glad you found the article helpful. You can also post questions for Steven (the author) in that subreddit, which he operates. He's usually pretty quick to answer and very helpful.

If your goal is the bar muscle-up, then I would say work the pieces of the bar muscle-up! You want a very strong (chest or higher) bar pull-up and a solid bar dip. In addition to making sure you have those, you'll want to work the transition. The great thing about working the transition is that you can do it with your feet supporting you as much as you need. It's completely scalable to your current level. GMB calls this the baby muscle up:

Since you've had tendonitis issues with your elbows, you're going to want to progress very slowly on the transition (once you've taken care of that tendonitis, of course!). Luckily, the transition is largely a skill component, so even if you put your full focus on getting a super strong pull and dip, the muscle-up should come rather quickly later on down the road. Doing it very slow is all about having enough strength to not need to rely on momentum, so just focus on getting your bar pull and dip really strong while you take care of those elbows.

[Vilgefortz]

Alright, i'll just have to find a low enough bar and i'm off :) Thanks for all the advice!

[Nathan]

7 hours ago, Vilgefortz said:

Alright, i'll just have to find a low enough bar and i'm off Thanks for all the advice!

You're welcome! Let us know how it goes!

[Vilgefortz]

I've been doing some of the rehab and it worked wonders. What's really weird is that i injured one elbow from hanging with one hand in the top of the pull-up position and that got better by doing overhead tricep negatives. Also really slow ring push ups on the knees seemed to be very effective.

[Kit_L]

THE key point from Steven's article; if people understood this, there'd be way lower incidence of tendon problems:

Quote

This condition arises when the volume of the workouts exceed your body’s ability to recover.

I recall a conversation with a friend who was a champion bodybuilder from years ago. I was talking about the neurophysiology and chemistry of overtraining. His reply (please tattoo this on the onside of your foreheads, everyone!):

"Kit, there is no such thing as overtraining. There is only insufficient rest and inadequate nutrition."

This covers it all. And it's the reason gymnasts train so gently, compared to adults who come into GST as adults. When I was talking to a well-known gymnastics coach and we were watching one of his athletes, he casually remarked, "I've got over 12,000 hours of training in that boy". The young man was just 16 years old.

The point, and it's a key one, is that as adults, we are always wanting to push the limits of adaptation. Young gymnasts, by comparison, do large volume at relatively low intensity for many years (10+) before their tendons and ligaments are considered strong enough to take the expected forces. Most adults can count their years of involvements in GST on the fingers on one hand, and they all want to progress as fast as possible. It is not possible to progress fast. 

Tendons and ligaments receive about 1/10th of the nutrition that muscles do. Deload weeks are necessary; deload months in meso-cycles are necessary, as are longer periods of active rest in macro-cycles. You cannot feel tendon injuries manifesting—only the results of trauma once there's enough of it.

IOW, forget any form of muscle-ups for now, and concentrate on recuperation, recovery, and restoration, for now and spend this time thinking about how you will replan the next six months of activity. In the long run, your body will limit what you want, and it's your task to find what those limits are before tendinopathy strikes.