Relaxation vs ROM: Interesting Article

[Rik]

It has a pretty simple physiological explanation. Active flexibility requires strength in the agonists (the muscles producing the movement; the muscles you're stretching are called the antagonists). As you move deeper into the stretch, the agonists get shorter, further and further from resting length. It is well know that the further a muscle is from resting length, the weaker it is. Hence as your passive ROM increases, your active ROM is going to lack behind because you are simply not weaker in the new ROM.

[jaja]

This was me:

http://www.davidlynch.de/chevalangry2.jpg

 

I'm sorry for exhuming this thread from the graveyard, but that comic is haunting me: what does it mean? I don't think I'ma able to grasp the meaning.

[[DW]]

...urge to abuse my powers as moderator and lock this topic into the coffin, high.

[[DW]]

Jaja - It will be more amusing if K answers your question. 

[vinca_minor]

Comic koan

[Kit_L]

@jaja: I don't understand the confusion: the title of the cartoon is "the angriest dog in the world". That used to be me. "Bound so tightly with tension and anger, he approaches the state of rigor mortis."

If I haven't answered your question, I will elaborate. 

and @ DW: thank you for your temperate moderation!

[oliviaa]

Dave you wrote:

...urge to abuse my powers as moderator and lock this topic into the coffin, high.

Because?

Best for 2016!

OP

[[DW]]

Dave you wrote:

 

...urge to abuse my powers as moderator and lock this topic into the coffin, high.

 

Because?

It's a Simpsons quote paraphrased. 

[oliviaa]

[[DW]]

[jaja]

On 1/3/2016 at 8:33 AM, Kit_L said:

@jaja: I don't understand the confusion: the title of the cartoon is "the angriest dog in the world". That used to be me. "Bound so tightly with tension and anger, he approaches the state of rigor mortis."

If I haven't answered your question, I will elaborate. 

 

I'm late to answer this, sorry. What is puzzling me is the ballon: what's the meaning of that statement?

[Kit_L]

Jaja, last comment from me on this. The balloon is dialogue coming from the house the dog is in front of. There is no connection between that line and the dog's state; that is part of the joke. And the statement (balloon) is accurate: "If all things are real, then the thing we call no-thing must be real, too", perhaps (as a linguistic or logical necessity), as that object is contained in the group of objects called "all things". Having said this, many have debated this very claim (usually while under the influence of drugs). Over and out from me.

[Nathan_S]

I’ve been reading this post for some time now.  Each time I return and read it again I find another gem of insight..  It’s a beautiful conversation, inspiring and valuable. I love that you are truly pursuing understanding.  Thank you all for your contributions.  Without a community within which to learn and pursue these ideas, I find I often have to fall back on resources and practices that , while useful, I value less and that teach me less.  This quality of thought, and search for understanding, is so very rare,. 

I remember when I first started to learn that there was more “power” in gentle touch and movement than in “forceful” movement.  It’s what led me to study craniosacral therapy and Qigong.  I found that much of the yoga I had done for decades was full of tension.  And I began to notice how peoples’ bodies appeared in yoga classes, and in exercise and physical movement in general, like thinking heads on rigid bodies.

I explored Alexander Technique and other methods, and it dawned on me repeatedly how much could be accomplished by training with less and less force and tension. (The inescapable parallel of course was that if so much could be accomplished with gentleness in movement and touch, what did that say about life?)

“Moving inside ourselves” is something I think we all do but don’t often talk about.

Think about any room in your house.  Now move the furniture around.  You are moving something around in a given container.  Our body is a container.   And we move inside of it.

For years I had noticed that after movement practices I could often sing much more easily, freely and powerfully - without strain - most likely due to muscular relaxation (the use of your larynx is tied to the amount of tension in your neck, spinal column, and elsewhere, where I hold a lot). 

After a while I began to use singing as a form of feedback for checking how relaxed and free I was in my body.

There were times where the sounds were strained and other times when they were not (especially on the “high notes”).  What I came to identify was that when I sang well I was actually doing something inside my mind (or my being) mili-seconds before I actually produced sound.  And the sound that I did produce was an outward manifestation of what I had done silently inside myself. And by following this inner movement, my singing was more fun, spontaneous, clear and strong. 

I think the same is true in physical movement, but we’re not often aware of it.  We move inside ourselves before we move externally. 

When the environment encourages or allows me to connect at this subtle level, then often the body, mind and intuition all begin to harmonize.

I often think that being tense in daily life has to do with the habitual ways we are located in our bodies.  Even when we are still, we are still located in our body.  Often we identify with our patterns of tension and recreate them in movement or stillness.  They may be sensation patterns we have made automatic.

End

[michaelsamsel]

Although this is probably too simplistic, the relaxation response is fullest (or only complete) if the brain wave state is predominantly alpha. I believe just stretching for a few hours puts me in alpha. However,I follow a rote routine that I tweak infrequently. If one was doing flexibility work in a problem solving/ competitive state of mind, it might keep the brain waves more beta? Could be why yoga nidra or vipassana seem to supply the difference, they train alpha?

I have been getting some neuro-feedback training tied to eye lens accommodation. Puts me in alpha much more directly than stretching. I haven't tested if it alone changes flexibility. I wonder if the 'atmospherics' of most yoga classes (whether authentic or not) are meant to work together with the asanas to put one in alpha?

[Kit_L]

On 8/29/2016 at 4:48 AM, michaelsamsel said:

the relaxation response is fullest (or only complete) if the brain wave state is predominantly alpha.

Not in my experience; please go back a few pages and look for my remarks about my experiences in the delta state. Alpha state is most closely correlated with associative (creative) thinking. The deepest relaxation experiences are in the delta state; the problem is that science claims to know nothing about this state and, 'knowing nothing' then proceeds to say what it is, or is not.

A note on language: "simplistic" does not mean simple; simplistic means overly simple; it's a common mistake these days. "Simple", on the other hand, can be excellent.

[Jim Pickles]

@michaelsamsel -  are you actually measuring your alpha and beta waves? If not, wouldn't it be better just to say less/more relaxed or whatever the everyday correlate is that you are using in your practice? More easily understood, and more likely to be accurate, too.

I agree with Kit's remark about the alpha state, by the way - though does Kit actually know he was in the delta state, or just some state that feels like it might be the delta state?

Maybe people have equipment nowadays that can measure brain waves easily - things have moved on so much since I was younger (when I DID spend a lot of time measuring alpha etc waves, as part of a research project).

Jim.

[michaelsamsel]

My response was a year ago so I don't recall so clearly what prompted it. I (or the optometrist) was getting some brainwave reading with the neuro-feedback, but not  with my stretching routine. I did mean to use the word simplistic as in 'overly simple' as a pre-emptive way of fending off criticism if I was talking through my hat which clearly I was! I think I did want to convey that I felt at times I went through a beneficial (for integrating the stretch) qualitative change as opposed to a quantitative change in relaxation level. Your point is well taken that one shouldn't use terms like alpha or beta impressionistically

[Kit_L]

Quote

though does Kit actually know he was in the delta state, or just some state that feels like it might be the delta state?

@Jim Pickles: a good question. All I can say is that I worked on only this for years, and am able to chart all the stages that led to it. It is possible I dreamed it all, of course. On the other hand, my physical body underwent a radical change in the same time period, too. And the Tibetan Buddhists do all their major work in this state—the same state that science says it knows nothing of (deep sleep and unconsciousness). I am going with the Tibetans on this one.

[Kit_L]

@michaelsamsel: I have read, and re-read, your post, but cannot understand what you are getting at. Can you try again and rephrase, perhaps?

[Jim Pickles]

@Kit_L - I believe you! - as you will have done a great deal of exploring of those states!

[michaelsamsel]

I myself can't understand my 2016 post in this thread. As for my recent post, I was basically saying I myself can't understand my 2016 post. 

In the summer of 2016 I was undergoing some neuro-feedback work with an optometrist that was aimed at the ciliary muscle but also affected my subjective sense of relaxation--but that is another story. At that time I must have felt I had some insight relevant to this thread but perhaps not.

[michaelsamsel]

There was a long pinned thread started by Olivia basically addressing this point but I can't seem to add to it anymore. I just wanted to share this link

https://www.energyarts.com/blog/bruceenergyartscom/taoist-yoga-man-suitcase

Most people seem to experience considerable relaxation with increasing muscle length but I guess the two things can be separated

 

[Yoon]

On 4/7/2015 at 11:12 AM, oliviaa said:

I've been thinking a lot in the past 12 months about muscle tension and flexibility, the idea that a person can be pretty flexible but at the same time very tense: good or bad or indifferent?

I've found that stretching has helped me get more flexible --- even as an adult who now spends way too much time in front of a computer! --- and of course there's the 'learning how to relax/release tension during the stretching' that is necessary to move deeper into a pose.

But, what about being less tense in daily life? I'm not sure there's been much carryover, however, the mobility work seems to be filling that gap in my body. Kit will possibly jump in and argue for lying relaxation as being what I need to do --- I seem to recall him saying that once or twice over the years --- but for whatever reason I don't do it/don't feel drawn to that practise, whereas I do mobility work many times during the day.

Thoughts?

Hi Olivia, 

a person can be pretty flexible but at the same time very tense: good or bad or indifferent?

-> Less tension = Battery conservation mode, multiply by the time we are awake our whole life. That is a lot of energy.  

But, what about being less tense in daily life?

-> Tension in daily life seems to be related to our nervous system. Through meditation practices, you directly hack the nervous system. Through mobility/stretching exercises you indirectly remind the nervous system to relax. It might be worthwhile directly hacking the system. =D

 but for whatever reason I don't do it/don't feel drawn to that practise

-> This is actually a very common report, and something I experienced myself. The answer is to 1) be aware that this is a very common response (just knowing that as a fact somehow helps, I'm like oh, hello resistance!) 2) to hack the nervous system, you can do any type of meditation, (you don't have to do lying relaxation), so find what works for you. 

When I first began, for some reason I couldn't bring myself to even attempt to sit for five minutes, so I did a 5 second in-daily life meditation practice. In daily life, when I had spare time (e.g. waiting in the line at the store, in the elevator, waiting for a computer screen to load, etc.in other words, time you usually just throw away) or when I was having intense experiences (e.g. blinding anger, fear before doing something important, pure sadness etc.) for 5 seconds, I would either concentrate on external sight/sound (e.g. sight of a chair, sound of the fan humming), internal sight/sound (e.g. visual memory of that ice-cream I like popping up, internal conversation 'why the ** is this taking so long'), or bodily sensations ( e.g. touch of the fabric on my skin, sensations of agitation). I would continue this for [5 seconds * however many times I felt like doing], and the results I saw from using these short moments led me to actually sit down for longer times, and now sometimes all I want to do is just sit. The result is not only bodily relaxation but also knowing *precisely* how to deal with intense life situations (And when you know that you can competently deal with intense life situations, that tension resulting from trying to fix life in a certain direction relaxes. It's like, imagine you are wearing an iron-man suit on you mind, your mind and body will naturally relax. =D ). 

Another method people usually like is music meditation, and that is just listening to music ( no lyrics is better). For emotional well-being, you can tap into the emotion that the music brings, and certain musics are very relaxing. To clear your mind, you can concentrate on the notes, how they increase/decrease in volume etc. and that will quiet down the mental chatter. 

Alternatively, you can use a quick breathing technique, 4-7-8 breathing. [Inhale for 4 seconds, hold 7 seconds, exhale 8 seconds] *7 times. This can be very effective within a very short period of time (= 2 minutes). 

Of course you can use movement as you primary method ( I know people who have achieved high levels of mental states through movement) but it might be useful to have several tools in your toolbox. Happy hacking! 

 

 

[Yoon]

On 4/7/2015 at 8:12 PM, Kit_L said:

Something came to me while I was sitting: the missing piece from the story above is something called dissociation. Used in this context it means when the mind is actually dissociated from the physical body. This happens in lying meditation or yoga nidra practices if one practices for long enough. What happens is that the body relaxes completely (and in my case usually begins to snore; this is now a marker for me) while the mind stays completely awake and clear/aware. The first time this happened to me I was practising alone in a 3 1/2 mat room in Berkeley California. I became aware of the sound of someone snoring near me. When I realise that I was listening to myself I woke up immediately.

What I did not mention in the brief note above is the cause of muscular tension. Our thoughts are the cause of muscular tension. The dissociation I refer to the above is the first step in a process where the body learns to dissociate (at least partly) from what's going on in the mind. And we all know that when the mind is disconnected from the body (as for example when anaesthetised or when we're unconscious) there is extremely low to no muscular tension. The mind creates tension; the same mind wakes us up early in the morning, spinning around ideas, concerns, worries.

So what I am proposing here are a series of practices whereby the body can learn to be relaxed and, eventually, no matter what's actually going on in the mind. And this relationship can work the other way as well: when one is agitated or worrying about something or depressed one can tune into the state of the body and the state of the mind will change if the body state itself is sufficiently different (as in relaxed). Now I would be the first to admit that none of this is normal in the sense that very few people in the modern world demonstrate these characteristics. But I do believe there can be learned. And that dissociation I mentioned above is the first step in a much larger process which is what meditation is at least partly about—and that is to realise one day that the field in which thinking is happening itself is a much larger space and is also a very deeply relaxed one. When one can see the activities of the mind in a much larger space, everything changes, yet the appearance stays the same.

Hi Kit, 

Thanks for the fascinating report. Yes, it is absolutely true that it is the mind that creates tension. 

One absolutely important distinction to be made is the distinction between the mind and awareness. 

Mind = mental talk, visual thought, bodily feeling.

Awareness = That which witnesses changes of these 3 aspects of mind. 

A relaxed mind is (nearly) absent of mental talk, visual thought, and bodily tension. And you are aware of this state. 

A dynamic mind is full of mental talk, visual thought, and bodily tension. And you are aware of this state. Awareness is always present no matter what state your mind is in. Mental states continuously change. Awareness doesn't. 

So, when you are deep in relaxation, it is not the mind but the awareness that witnesses your body's relaxation (this distinction is extremely important) .  Now, next time you are in relaxation, turn your attention to that which is aware of the relaxation. THAT is your true self. Notice that after the session is done, when your mind/body tenses up, awareness (you) is still aware. Notice that this awareness was present all your life. Next, drop all efforts to meditate or relax and notice you are still aware (You are effortlessly your True Self).

Noticing this is the end goal of all meditation. Relaxation allows you to access your true self more easily and as it seems like you can achieve deep states of relaxation, I would try to touch base with the end goal NOW.  In short, once you achieve reasonable levels of deep relaxation, turn your attention to that which is aware and notice that while your mental states have always fluctuated throughout your whole life, that awareness was always present and is present even if you try not to be aware, it is naturally who you are. 

This will result in fundamental relaxation as you know *from experience* that you are not the mind-body against the world. Subtle layers of tensions you put on as a body-mind drops out and the world becomes safer and safer. (There is one last link for ultimate relaxation, let me know if it becomes necessary)

 

[Kit_L]

@Yoon,

From what background or training do you speak? Your three-part description of Mind (your usage), namely "mental talk, visual thought, bodily feeling"—from where does this come?

Bodily feeling is not part of Mind, the way you are using the term. In my experience, what you label "bodily feeling" is what I call "sensations" and they are ephemeral (they exist only in the continuously unfolding present). They cannot be thought about except in the conceptual sense—that is thoughts about sensation; sensations can only be felt. This distinction is fundamental to our system, Stretch Therapy.

If you clarify your background and experience, we can talk.