Relearning How To Walk

[mytype1collagenis2tight]

First and foremost thank you all at ST for providing a forum for discussing and tracking progress. This will be much more organized than hoping I saved things randomly on my home computer.

Going to start with replying to my own Form Check post:

TL;DR: I was wondering if that nagging sensation in the posterior of my knee was complicit in identifying the "correct" area of stretch for the Reaching Triangle and Elephant Walk (MTPc L2A-B).

In short yes it is and I discovered collateral proof within my own body from a separate stretch yesterday. Performed Outer Hamstring (E8 of MTPike) and right there, where Olivia said it started in her own body, was the same sensation. Centered around the posterior knee near where the hamstring tendons decent for their insertion. If anything the area is a bit vague to localize further but possibly a tad bit medial of center, being referred sensations. 

Anyways, nice insight to have gained.

[Nathan]

On 2017/11/4 at 2:02 AM, mytype1collagenis2tight said:

identifying the "correct" area of stretch

Welcome! And glad to hear you discovered an answer on your own!  

That said, don't get too caught up on the "correct" area to feel a stretch, because that totally depends on your goals and will also change as your flexibility changes (even daily). The function of "correct" form is to produce the stretch in a specific area, but anywhere you would like to feel a stretch can be correct for you, individually. For example, when I am in a seated pike, I make several adjustments that move the stretch from calves, to hamstrings, to lower back. The general position is the same, but slight form adjustments allow me to stretch different areas. And they are all correct for me 

But I'm probably preaching to the choir! Either way, glad to have you here and hope you keep enjoying the journey!

[mytype1collagenis2tight]

11 hours ago, Nathan said:

depends on your goals and will also change as your flexibility changes (even daily)

Thanks for validating this, it's very freeing both figuratively and literally! In the absolute beginning (like 3-4mo ago ), like probably most others, I felt a bit lost and any extra direction seemed helpful. Years of received pedantic pedagogy entrains certain behaviors after all.

I'm certainly becoming increasingly aware of minutiae. For example, seated piriformis then sitting the chest up makes it more intense in a different way. I like it, because any process of moving my pelvis through stretching legs while maintaining a flat (even extended) back feels difficult and therefore corrective right now. Hmmm... maybe "corrective" is a better term. Cheers and thanks Nathan!

[mytype1collagenis2tight]

I had a fascinating moment 2 days ago. Was performing inclined weighted pancake pulses for a strong stretch day (something Kit detailed on in another post). All of a sudden, with a very relaxed belly and smooth, deep diaphragmatic breathing (something I've been focusing on more and more lately)... I found myself literally going from 70ish to 45 degrees and beyond just like someone allowing a seesaw to slowly return to baseline by letting go of one end. Total ease into the significant increased range of motion. No struggle at all yet it was so surprising to feel myself move many degrees more into that stretch than ever before that I prematurely ended the motion in disbelief haha. 

That was a fine moment indeed. But in the interest of full history giving, I've also been rather diligent in limbering multiple times a day. Triangle pose, only a month later, is also significantly better (attached pics). Many different limbers, giving more time to those that feel particularly tight on any given episode. Sumo squat, full squat, piriformis (more on this in a bit), squashed frog, (narrow stance) elephant walks, hip flexors, spinal waves, cat-cows, shoulder flexion/extension, neck rotations, jaw (love that youtube video... my wife chuckled at "jaw yoga"). I've even produced the, so far, beneficial habit of doing internal hip rotations when driving (with safety in mind of course for pedaling leg), or spinal waves when sitting. Left side is certainly more tight than right on hip flexors (though closing the gap lately), piriformis... shoulder flexion a bit tighter on the right somehow. 

Piriformis in particular has been a very useful target. I was passively stretching this for quite a while (long before engaging in Stretch Therapy) though now that I'm using the seated piriformis cues from the videos and the new approach, lots of improvements there and it's translating to other areas of my mobility (pancake in particular). I started with the MTS version of leaning into the quad and lifting the chest first, did this diligently for several weeks then transitioned to starting with upright quad away from me, straightening the back and attempting to anteriorly tilt pelvis through legs (really working as often as possible on this motion) then C-R, deep breath and wow my right leg in particular is making significant gains in range of motion also. I can almost pull the quad all the way to chest, about a full foot length (30.48cm for translation purposes). It's uncanny. 

I can't repeat enough that refocusing on the process of stretching, refocusing on the razor's edge of comfort/discomfort and my breathing as the guide, is making all the difference for me and am most grateful for the guidance I've gleamed through these forums, podcasts, etc. 

[mytype1collagenis2tight]

Several things. 

1) I'm an American. Why should this matter? Kit recently referenced (in the Propane Fitness podcast) having very few Americans actively using these forums, identifying many of the culturally-bound issues in America as likely complicit in this correlation (lack of immediate gratification dare I say?). I can't say I disagree in general. Though this brings me to #2:

2) What the hell is going on!?! (Canadian) 'Sorry' for the (American) hyperbole, but I've been just swinging through my hips on the triangle pose like someone opened the floodgates in way less time than I anticipated (and that anticipation was months/years). I'm becoming increasingly brave in this pose though also fearful at < parallel as I don't have ladder bars in my office. I stopped going forwards mostly because wasn't sure I'd keep my balance going further. Guess I could just grab the chair...

Sorry for the "play" button in the pic but the timer on my phone camera is only 10sec long and takes me longer to get this deep, so screen captured a video instead.

Of course on the ground "proper" pancake is much better all of a sudden, yet nowhere near as progressed as the gravity assist (for tautological reasons). For the first time in a while I attempted a proper pancake on a whim. The difference in being able to feel my hips move through my straddled legs was illuminating, nearly cathartic as I almost started sobbing.

3) I have a therapy seminar which I am very much looking forward to attending. However, I'm dismayed that ST won't be coming to the US anytime in the foreseeable future (per my reading of Kit's US references in the podcast)? Singapore and London are quite far away... well, here's my one vote for a West Coast US tour again!

Cheers and happy weekend everyone.

[Nathan]

Excellent progress! I'm American too, by the way, although I live in Japan currently. I believe @Kit_L spent several years doing workshops in the US and developed a nice little group of ST teachers and practitioners. It's a lot of trouble to keep a visa valid and manage the business/taxes side of making money in the US, so he decided to focus his energy elsewhere, if I remember correctly.

My recommendation is to take a vacation!  I never would have visited Australia if I hadn't found ST, but now I've been to Melbourne and Brisbane, and it was certainly an experience! It's taken me to Singapore too, which was a lot of fun. Sure, it's expensive, but if you can manage it somehow it's totally worth it (for the workshop and the overall experience)! I'm hoping to visit them at Greenwell Point next year if everything works out!

[mytype1collagenis2tight]

Great to hear Nathan! You're right, I looked up an ST practitioner and there happens to be one less than an hour from me. Guess I could treat myself to a session or two (though I've also been eyeing that sensory deprivation tank...).

12 hours ago, Nathan said:

I never would have visited Australia

The ironic (?) part is I lived in New Zealand for 6mo a couple years ago and visited Melbourne and Sydney for a week each.... oh well, opportunities will come again to travel afar. That trip was the first step of many in reorganizing my life, and undoubtedly helped pave the way to me even noticing ST and other lifestyle changes (like my new dietary style). No rushing life, or I'll miss it. Thanks for the encouragement, your and other's workout logs on here are inspirational in the best way: everyone has their own path.

[Nathan]

13 hours ago, mytype1collagenis2tight said:

I've also been eyeing that sensory deprivation tank...

I always wanted to do this! And then, not too long ago, one finally showed up not too far from where I live in Japan so I finally took the plunge (float?)  Definitely an experience, but not at all worth it for me, to be honest. I'm pretty relaxed normally (mentally, at least... Kit might say my muscles don't feel that way ) and can just sit around spacing out for hours with no problem, so it really didn't feel like anything special to me. They say it takes a few sessions to really get the most out of it, so that might have been part of it. If it's really cheap, or if you're a real "type a" person who stresses a lot, then it may be worth a try, but otherwise... I'd say some ST would be a much better use of your money 

13 hours ago, mytype1collagenis2tight said:

I lived in New Zealand for 6mo a couple years ago and visited Melbourne and Sydney

Nice! Would love to visit NZ! Maybe you should try to make the London workshops then  Or Singapore... and then hop on over to HK or something while you're in the area  Kit has an apprentice in HK (Czon) at the moment, so maybe we'll see some HK workshops in the future too. Czon does her own ST workshops and classes too, although I think (?) they are all in Cantonese, even though her English is excellent!

[mytype1collagenis2tight]

On December 9, 2017 at 8:20 PM, Nathan said:

not at all worth it for me

Thanks for sharing your experience! To your points, I'm not type A as so much 'obsessive' (in that way most physicians are) and have found meditative practices to be very helpful in that regard. Hmmm, I was predicating my curiosity around 'floating' based on anecdotes from people on podcasts. Some even romanticize it to being the non-drug user's way of accessing a psychedelic-dissociation experience. I was just hoping it would be a nice way to get into a very deep meditative state. It's only $40 for a 2-hour session on a deal I found; I'll probably give it a go and report back my own experience.

On December 9, 2017 at 8:20 PM, Nathan said:

Would love to visit NZ!

Definitely worth the effort, you wouldn't be disappointed and you'd be a very short plane ride to Australia at that. Such an amazing area of the planet. 

[Nathan]

5 hours ago, mytype1collagenis2tight said:

It's only $40 for a 2-hour session on a deal I found; I'll probably give it a go and report back my own experience.

Yeah, that's pretty cheap! I'd totally do it. It may be fantastic for you! I think I had to pay close to $100 for one 90-minute session, so yeah. And yeah, I've heard all of the romanticizing.

5 hours ago, mytype1collagenis2tight said:

I was just hoping it would be a nice way to get into a very deep meditative state.

That's pretty much exactly what it is. For people that have a hard time getting anywhere close to that in normal life, it's probably an amazing experience. For people that do things like meditation, lying relaxation, or who are just generally really laid back, I'm guessing it won't be much special. As for the dissociation thing... I often feel almost separated from my body during lying relaxation, and I've been mentally conscious/aware of my body sleeping more than once, so lying relaxation has been more "psychedelic" for me, personally. Then again, I've done it a lot more! I'm sure if you float often, you'll find those things there too. But lying relaxation is free 

[mytype1collagenis2tight]

19 hours ago, Nathan said:

But lying relaxation is free 

And there's the rub... you know what? You've got me thinking I'd rather just buy resistance bands which I've wanted. Maybe start working on materials to build a ladder bar. We'll see. Thanks for the insights.

[Nathan]

8 hours ago, mytype1collagenis2tight said:

You've got me thinking I'd rather just buy resistance bands which I've wanted. Maybe start working on materials to build a ladder bar.

Both excellent tools! I have bands, but I can only dream about the bars  I'm sure both would be beneficial to your practices for a long time to come!

[mytype1collagenis2tight]

Thanks for the great help @Nathan with the decision making!

I had the thought after a strong weighted pancake and pike stretch day just how much the sumo squat variations had been instrumental in opening up my straddle by releasing the tensor fascia latae more. The sumo squat variations have also been instrumental in progressively increasing my anterior/posterior pelvic rotational range of motion through flexed knees/hips and this undoubtedly also helps my pike and pancake anterior pelvic tilt strength. I'm literally hearing non-painful cracks and snaps in the hip joint and this is a good thing; they feel 'refreshed' and 'buzzing' in all the right ways this week.

At the other end of my torso is a large increase in the ROM on shoulder flexion from doing a progressive series of prone (I'm calling "lying") puppy pose --> formal puppy pose with hips elevated above knees --> butcher's block. This was the result after only 6-7 weeks of limbering/stretching this out:

[Kit_L]

On 12/1/2017 at 5:52 AM, mytype1collagenis2tight said:

I can't repeat enough that refocusing on the process of stretching, refocusing on the razor's edge of comfort/discomfort and my breathing as the guide, is making all the difference for me and am most grateful for the guidance I've gleamed through these forums, podcasts, etc. 

Connection to actual sensation (rather than a concept of what it should feel like; not wanting it to feel a particular way; wanting faster progress; etc., etc.) is the piece that is missing from most "stretching" programs. As I have written about extensively, set and reps don't cut it in the stretching world. Connection to immediate sensation right now is the only process that can change what feels like an immutable response from the body ("when I do this, it hurts") into something else. When I tell a room of beginners that one day what you are doing now will feel pleasurable, most people just laugh, but it is true, nonetheless.

Re. presenting in the US: I taught there annually for 10 years, and never got any real traction in that market. The difference between that and the first time I taught in London (where most of the attendees came from everywhere else in Europe) could not be more stark. We have had many Americans wanting me to (say) come to Washington State when I was offering workshops in Vancouver, but they would not drive over the border. There are some blog posts on some of these experiences that you might like.

And (thanks @Nathan), the relaxation recordings are free at present, and incorporating these into your daily life can have an extraordinarily beneficial effect.

[oliviaa]

Re. North America, I will have an announcement in early 2018 about workshops in Canada (Vancouver, specifically). I got some good news from the Canadian Consulate in Sydney just last week about work visa requirements!

Cheers
Olivia

[mytype1collagenis2tight]

On December 16, 2017 at 1:15 PM, Kit_L said:

many Americans wanting me to (say) come to Washington State when I was offering workshops in Vancouver, but they would not drive over the border.

 

23 hours ago, oliviaa said:

I will have an announcement in early 2018 about workshops in Canada (Vancouver, specifically)

Well well well, Merry Christmas to me and my family: wife happens to be from Vancouver, family still lives there and now we have a double excuse to visit in 2018.

Thank you all very much! We are not averse to traveling across the border. 

Just made my day. 

Cheers

[mytype1collagenis2tight]

RE: egotistical origins of my engagement with this forum (i.e. wanting advice on seated figure 4 [MTS-L7]). Did my customary workout today and this seated figure 4 maneuver is much progressed since I last posted on the pose back in October(?). Again, as with the hips-thru-straddle motion, I equate these improvements to both sumo squat and piriformis work. The razors' edge has expanded by a tiny bit, but quite a notable bit, as I'm now capable of having a little more leeway with C-R and feeling the adductor muscle stabilizing the knee joint on the internally rotating leg. Massive difference to know my own body more.

[mytype1collagenis2tight]

Unconscious unlocking.

During my heavy stretch session today was again in weighted, incline-assisted pancake position and making serious progress in the depth with a 45# plate on my back. The 'fear' I had alluded to in an earlier post about not going further in triangle pose, lest I fall over, was similarly felt for a brief moment today in this position. Though the overwhelming thoughts associated with this brief fear response today included those of my endurance running years and encountering that 'withdraw or push-through' dyadic moment. Rather than taking either path in my thoughts, I focused instead on the feeling of fear. Cued a breathing technique, readjusted my straddle a bit and, the most important part really bore down on tightening the inner leg muscles so as to stabilize my medial knee joints. This made all the difference. I completely averted the, in the moment, perceived choice of push-through or retreat out of the pose. Instead, by reentering my feeling and somatic calibration (so to speak), I was able to breath into even greater depths.

Very insightful session.

[Kit_L]

9 hours ago, mytype1collagenis2tight said:

this brief fear response today included those of my endurance running years and encountering that 'withdraw or push-through' dyadic moment.

@mytype1collagenis2tight: this is the crux of all major "problems" (inverted commas, because in reality there are no problems): the innate tendency for the mind to jump immediately to its reflexive "this or that" perspective. Any time there is any emotional charge in the perceiving process (fear, in this case), the tendency to narrow what is being experienced to a choice between only two options is the norm. By pausing at the instant where, in the past when faced with a similar experience, to move to one or either of those lemmas (where we get the term "horns of a dilemma" from), you create space; space is the only place options can be generated. You made choices, but not the immediately perceived ones (your "withdraw or push-through"): instead, you focused on your breathing (that's the conscious choice to pause), contracted the inner leg muscles (which was not an option in the initial experience, but was generated in the moment, in that space) and was "able to breath into even greater depths".

This in a nutshell is the ST system. Thank you for writing such a pertinent example.

[mytype1collagenis2tight]

11 hours ago, Kit_L said:

This in a nutshell is the ST system.

@Kit_L Thank you for your response, the reference and direct framing of the moment-to-moment break down of the ST system through my example. 

I have many ideas I would like to share, in due time with you, related to the massive overlap between my work in psychodynamic psychiatry and the ST system. We had a brief dalliance on this topic a couple months back and after reviewing your Propane Fitness podcast I feel we could have very cogent discussions about this topic. It's becoming increasingly obvious to me that the methods of unconscious unlocking are being approached in ST through somatic reorganization and in psychodynamic therapy through defensive-psychological reorganization. I do not believe they are mutually exclusive and the therapy approach is much changed in practice from those early days of 'passive' psychoanalysis. 

The work I apply in practice encouraging patients to feel their feelings when they happen in session with me, instead of being subsumed into anxiety or retreating into defense exactly mirrors what I tried to self-apply in the stretch position in my example above. It is successful for the same reasons you suggested yourself: 

11 hours ago, Kit_L said:

you create space

The general dynamic sequence is nearly identical between the systems:

defense (i.e. restricted body) <--> anxiety (i.e. retreat or attack from depth of stretch)

--> OR sink into the underlying feeling state (fear tied to intruding memories of endurance running) and use this as opportunity for authentic experiencing in the moment (somatic experiencing of the fear which mimicked the poor form of my legs with non-braced knees). Breathing purposefully to allow it to pass, engaging newly discovered options in the moment of pause and space creation

--> further unconscious unlocking (akin to your reference in Propane Fitness podcast recently of a woman who had a sobbing breakdown w/ intruding memories of a trauma during a breakthrough in a pose)

--> restructuring of the meaning of the unlocking into our soma and psyche (re-appropriating the new experience in our new body map and new feeling map). 

However, a caveat: I DO NOT see cathartic moments, nor do dynamic psychotherapists, as therapeutic in and of themselves. Rather they are viewed as positive signposts towards a path of restructuring the meaning of the newfound experienced space and the feelings/somatic reactions in them. Anxiety would be a negative signpost of deeper feeling being avoided and a restricting of that space to two false dichotomous options.

Very fascinating, I hope you do find yourself in a mood to talk about this at length in the appropriate forum in the future. I'm game. 

[michaelsamsel]

7 hours ago, mytype1collagenis2tight said:

@Kit_L methods of unconscious unlocking are being approached in ST through somatic reorganization and in psychodynamic therapy through defensive-psychological reorganization. I do not believe they are mutually exclusive and the therapy approach is much changed in practice from those early days of 'passive' psychoanalysis. 

I am a bio-energetic therapist and an avid amateur practitioner of ST, which I recommend to 98% of my clients.

Alexander Lowen's message is: change your body, change your life (changing your mind is implied in changing your life). It doesn't hardly work the other way. Trying to change your mind or life will not change your body (and so you really aren't changing your mind or your life by trying to change your mind or your life, if you aren't working directly with your body)

Alexander Lowen wrote 13 book all still in print if you are really interested in body based therapy. My website is www.reichandlowentherapy.org

[Kit_L]

@michaelsamsel: I am sure that @mytype1collagenis2tight will disagree with your assertion, "It doesn't hardly work the other way". The starting premise of any derivation of the "talking cure" (usually attributed to Freud) is that is does. And wide experience shows us that it can.

You can tell I favour the Lowen/Reich somatic approach over the more practitioner-patient interaction approaches. I am sure Michael will jump right in here to amplify his perspective; recall his "I do not believe they are mutually exclusive and the therapy approach is much changed in practice from those early days of 'passive' psychoanalysis.". The larger point is that both approaches can bring about massive change and, usually beneficial change.  

Let's explore a limit case here. If you are a student of Zen (or the Tao, the left-handed path of Tantra, or any of the 'direct realisation' schools), and you have a deep enlightenment experience, you are changed by this. So, the question: is this change psychological or physical? And in this example, where is the practitioner? I am playing the Devil's advocate here, because as I have written about extensively elsewhere (on my blog, in particular) this distinction between 'mind' and body, fundamental to Western medicine and philosophy is extremely hard to find in reality. 

I believe that the core processes, whether classed as "psychological" or "physical" are whole body phenomena (thinking, and meditating, is embodied, after all), and we know mental processes have profound effect on physical ones (if we allow the distinction for the sake of exposition) and vice versa. (My Master's thesis was intimately concerned with this; Descartes was wrong in asserting, "I think, therefore I am", I decided; it needs rewriting to, "I feel, therefore I think", [in Fr. of course.])

My larger point is that if does not seem to matter which end of the mind–body continuum one choose with (I suspect one's own personality, likes and dislikes, etc., will play major roles in the choices made); the goal is beneficial interaction. I like to say on workshops that we are all doing the same work (releasing someone from the tyranny of their thought process) whichever way we work. I also say that one advantage of our explicit focus on body work (even though I know this is not a distinction that can be located in Reality) is that most people do not find conceptualising and practising in terms of "dealing with a physical problem" to be intrusive; this is important if your interaction time is limited, as our always is.

[mytype1collagenis2tight]

I want to thank both @michaelsamsel and @Kit_L for a stimulating discussion. 

13 hours ago, Kit_L said:

My larger point is that if does not seem to matter which end of the mind–body continuum one choose with (I suspect one's own personality, likes and dislikes, etc., will play major roles in the choices made); the goal is beneficial interaction.

Yes this was my general assertion as well, thanks for pointing out my openness to the appropriateness of either approach. One may actually lead into another, as it appears to have done so for me personally. I try to refrain from chagrining other therapy approaches. I may choose not to practice them, but that is the influence of having a direct beneficial experience and therefore belief in the efficacy of psychodynamic (and increasingly ST) therapy. I'm an enormous fan of other types of therapy that I don't practice, so long as the patient is experiencing benefit. I would never, with undue influence, challenge a patients' choice for their therapy style/approach... usually if anything they're trying a new therapist/style/starting over when meeting me and we use it as an opportunity for exploration of novel territory. 

15 hours ago, michaelsamsel said:

www.reichandlowentherapy.org

And in the spirit of the open, collaborative dialogue here, I very much welcome your references! I look forward to exploring this work. If anything, challenging my own beliefs is a worthwhile exercise that offers it's own set of experiences and spaces for growth.

[mytype1collagenis2tight]

I'm actually seeing the sumo squat (MTS - L1) as being increasingly important in my daily limbering routine. My new favorite way to do this limber sequence is to start as wide as possible and perform the anterior/posterior swinging of the hips through the abducted, flexed legs then doing micro-adjustments by progressively decreasing the distance between the feet (may make 5-8 of these adjustments in a single session) until I've adducted my legs sufficiently to be nearly vertical in the hips/back. This is working wonders on freeing my TFL and inner hamstrings in relation to my glutes and outer hamstrings. What a wonderful maneuver and consistently feeling "buzzed" nearly every time I perform them. Key position for me at the moment. 

[michaelsamsel]

20 hours ago, Kit_L said:

@michaelsamsel: I am sure that @mytype1collagenis2tight will disagree with your assertion, "It doesn't hardly work the other way". The starting premise of any derivation of the "talking cure" (usually attributed to Freud) is that is does. And wide experience shows us that it can.

Freud's talking cure seemed to work strongly and quickly in the early days, then seemed to become less powerful and much longer as the years went on, even as the analysts were becoming more sophisticated. Lowen hypothesized that at first, Freud talking to patients about sex etc was such a shock that it actually was an autonomic nervous system intervention (like a reset) and that the shock changed the holding in the body. As patients became more sophisticated and knew what topics would be discussed, it faded back into a conversation. A zen enlightenment must work like a shock, one imagines.

My experience has been that if I can get a client to actually work the body, (and it is a really hard sell, even among those that come looking for 'somatic therapy' ) they progress so much more. Maybe I'm not much good at the talking part. Hence speaking from my experience may be only speaking from my experience.

But I'm not trying to be dogmatic. Point taken that there are examples of successful 'top-down' work as well as successful 'bottom-up' work