Internally Rotated Shoulders In Full Back Bend

[bwsc]

What's your thoughts on the shoulder position in Full Back Bend? The reason I'm asking is because I'm working on a movement tick-tock a.k.a kick over.  

I find it is so much easier to kick back up to handstand from back bend when I rotate the shoulder internally because half of my torso pass through already. 

Do you think it's a compensation? To clarify, the vid below is what I'm describing 3m39s mark. Thanks!

 

[Kit_L]

My understanding of shoulder movements (following orthodox anatomy) is that when we talk about "external rotation of the shoulder joint" we are describing the movement of the arm bone (humerus) inside the glenoid cavity (the bony structure of the shoulder blade that the arm move in). If your hold an arm out in front of you, with the wrist extended, and rotate your arm so the thumb moves towards the mid-line of the body, ending up pointing at the floor, that's internal rotation. The opposite movement (ending up with thumb pointing outwards) is external rotation. In your bridge, you start with your fingers pointing back towards your feet, and neither they nor your your elbows change their relationships with the body during the video sequences, so neither internal nor external rotation is happening while you bridge, it seems to me.

So, are you really internally rotating your shoulders in that position? It looks to me as if the arm-in-shoulder joint position is neutral to externally rotated, but your shoulder girdle mobility is exceptional (the movement of the scapulae, and hence total arm-and-scapula movement), so your arms are able to move past the acromia easily. Compared to your female demonstrating partner, your arm movement with respect to your body comes more from arm-in-shoulder-joint; hers more from thoracic extension with arms and shoulders in a neutral position (see how we are seeing the sides of her arms; in the positions you are describing in your body, we are seeing the insides of your arms); to me this suggests external rotation of arms in shoulder joint, if anything. The exceptional flexibility you have in your arms comes from excellent ROM of pec. minor, pec. major, and biceps, I think.

Does anyone else have any ideas?

Nice tutorial, too.

[Nathan]

@Kit_L: Pretty sure that's not the poster's video, although it would be cool if Alex from Calisthenic Movement joined us here  I don't really have much to add to the discussion, except that @Emmet Louis recommends internal rotation in his video about the bridge (starting at 2:45):

Personally, this felt very odd for me the few times I attempted it with elevated holds. The scaps felt much less stable, as if I was pushing them out to the side. That may simply be because there were too many cues to keep track of and I was letting retraction or elevation slip, but I'm not sure. Would be interested in Emmet's thoughts since I'll probably give it another go in the future and would like to know if it's just a different sensation that I'll need to get used to.

[bwsc]

This is me displaying a transition to bridge.

 Table to back bend

It is clear that rotation in shoulders is happening. To come back to table, rotation is required again. Right?

[Kit_L]

@bwsc: in your case, yes, going from table to bridge (beautifully done, BTW) you do internally rotate arms inside your shoulders: your fingers in the table position point behind you, you internally rotate your arms in the shoulders to transition into the bridge and, once there, your fingers point towards your feet.

In the video above I commented on (which I thought was you), in the section you referred to, 3:39, he starts with his fingers pointing back towards his feet, and this hand/arm position does not change during that section—so from my perspective, no rotation is happening during that bridging, because his hands and arms do not move on the ground. In your demo, they do, about 180°. 

This may be a naming convention problem. Recall I wrote above (in the description of internal and external rotation) that if you straighten your arm with wrist extended, fingers pointing to the sky, one arm movement is called internal rotation; the other external. If you bend the elbow of that arm and place the back of your fingers behind your shoulder, that is the bridge start position (fingers pointing back to toes). In classical anatomy, that position is described as neutral, with the arm neither internally nor externally rotated. But these are relative terms, in one sense, aren't they? In the standing anatomical position that everyone uses for reference, the arms are externally rotated (palms facing forward).  To get the arms into the bridge start position as I have described, from this position you internally rotate your arms. From most people's neutral arm position (in between max. internal and external rotation), the bridge start position will be found.

I am happy to be corrected on this. The anatomical terms that describe scapular movement are found HERE. They are elevation, depression, protraction, retraction, upward rotation, and downward rotation. Internal and external rotation, strictly speaking, apples only to arm movements within scapular movements, as I understand the terms.

[Jim Pickles]

I found this discussion useful. In relation to Nathan's comment: I agree with Emmet Louis - if I understand what he is saying. I would also put it - the points of the elbow joints should be pointing out to the sides. Please correct me if I have the wrong interpretation. Looking at photos of gymnasts, and of myself, I see that I dont internally rotate my arms (elbows out) enough, and this may explain why I don't have enough shoulder mobility when doing a bridge. Though I can't (at the moment) get much further when I use more internal rotation, it feels as though it has different limitations and ones that I should be able to overcome with more stretching.

So thanks, Jim.

(Attached, a pic of me and a rather more glamorous gymnast - I have put spots on the points of the elbows, showing that hers are rotated out to the side much more than mine)

Edited April 26, 2017 by Jim Pickles

[Kit_L]

Jim, in your case, there is a slight restriction in flexion in the shoulder joint; most likely the lats and/or pec. minor are a bit tight, compared to the lumbar spine. And you can see that your thoracic spine is straight, whereas the young gymnast has a strong additional extension just under her shoulder blades. The lats are probably the reason you can't fully straighten your elbows, too: this is the most common form point for men. Hanging from a bar for time will help this as well.

I would recommend elevating your feet a foot or so, and working on fully straightening the arms. Once straight, apply the needed thoracic extension force by gently and slowly straightening your legs (you might even tuck the tail to remove some of the lumbar extension); you might want the feet roughly under the knees for this remedial exercise. This will not look as dramatic as the bridge you show here, but will stretch the last tight parts, and the bridge will move in the direction of the gymnast's.

I do not think the elbow positions are the key, here.

[Jim Pickles]

Thanks Kit - I will do what you say. I have been losing flexibility in this area over the last few years, and my exercises have not been correcting it - clearly because I was addressing the wrong issues. Maybe when I do the course with you in Brisbane in a weeks time you will have a moment to give a quick assessment of my tightnesses in this area.

Thanks, Jim.

[Jim Pickles]

After a session today I would certainly say the pec minor is a major contributor, and so probably are the lats as well. However, if the spine is unloaded I have quite good thoracic flexibility - but when my weight is taken on my arms (either in a bridge, or when I am balancing on my forearms in a backbend in a scorpion) it straightens out. Not sure why - maybe I tighten the lats to brace the shoulder and this straightens the torso out. An ongoing problem.

Thanks, Jim.