How much elbow hyperextension is desirable/acceptable?

[nichteilen]

I was listening to a podcast with @Kit_L where he mentioned that a certain amount of elbow hyperextension is useful for handbalancing. My question is, how much? I had people telling me I was going to break both my arms when I posted a bench press form check  on Reddit where I was locking out my elbows in their "straight" position-- and that was with significantly less than my body weight loaded on the joints, so I assumed, until now, that I needed to bend my elbows slightly in my handstands. Here is my handstand with my elbows locked:

I don't usually experience pain in my elbows in my handstand, but I do sometimes in one-arm planks and this shoulder-opening stretch.

Thoughts?

[Nathan]

Wow! That's a good bit of hyperextension  I can't help you, but I bet @Emmet Louis might be able to.

[Kit_L]

That is a LOT of hyperextension, but I have seen this in many Asian people—and that does not seem to stop them doing whatever they want to do. I think it's critical to not hang off the ligaments in the elbow when doing HS, and I would recommend tensing biceps, brachalis, brachioradialis and anything else as well as the obvious muscles (this is called "co-contraction" and it adds immense strength to the joint by tensing all the muscles that cross the joint). If any elbow pain develops, then the same advice we give yogis who have hyperextended knees can be given: very slightly bend the joint closed from the hyperextended position, then really tense all the muscles around the joint: this way you will be hanging off the muscles and not stretching the ligaments.

[DavidGrey]

Holy crap! That is a lot! As I was reading it I was thinking...”hyperextension is fine.... if you have a range, use it and get strong in it”. But then I saw the picture...

[MarkusO]

This looks a bit too much from me. Just out of interest, does this feel comfortable for you? I have not seen such a large amount of hyperextension before and to me it looks like this will hurt sooner or later. How does it feel for you if you straighten your arms just until they are just completely straight? I would probably try to train in a more straight position myself from a point of longetivity but also aesthetics. I also do wonder if you do any strength training besides handstands? Just wondering if one could counter this by strenghtening the elbow flexors.

[nichteilen]

10 hours ago, Kit_L said:

That is a LOT of hyperextension, but I have seen this in many Asian people—and that does not seem to stop them doing whatever they want to do. I think it's critical to not hang off the ligaments in the elbow when doing HS, and I would recommend tensing biceps, brachalis, brachioradialis and anything else as well as the obvious muscles (this is called "co-contraction" and it adds immense strength to the joint by tensing all the muscles that cross the joint). If any elbow pain develops, then the same advice we give yogis who have hyperextended knees can be given: very slightly bend the joint closed from the hyperextended position, then really tense all the muscles around the joint: this way you will be hanging off the muscles and not stretching the ligaments.

Actually, the ethnic pattern you've noticed does seem to correlate with my experience of who finds my arms freaky and who thinks they're normal.

"Hanging off the ligaments" does describe what I feel in my handstand, now that I think about it that way. I tried doing a handstand while focusing on tensing my biceps and it seems like that lets me bend my arms a little without getting the "now I am doing a handstand with bent arms" feeling that I get when I focus on the elbow angle. 

Thank you!

 

5 hours ago, DavidGrey said:

Holy crap! That is a lot! As I was reading it I was thinking...”hyperextension is fine.... if you have a range, use it and get strong in it”. But then I saw the picture...

Ha! Yeah, when I see it in context it does look kind of creepy... 

1 hour ago, MarkusO said:

This looks a bit too much from me. Just out of interest, does this feel comfortable for you? I have not seen such a large amount of hyperextension before and to me it looks like this will hurt sooner or later. How does it feel for you if you straighten your arms just until they are just completely straight? I would probably try to train in a more straight position myself from a point of longetivity but also aesthetics. I also do wonder if you do any strength training besides handstands? Just wondering if one could counter this by strenghtening the elbow flexors.

 

It does feel comfortable in a handstand, but it's possible that that's only because I can't yet hold a freestanding handstand for long enough for it to become uncomfortable! As I mentioned above, if I do what I was doing which was just trying to make them look straight, then it just feels like my arms are bent. But as Kit suggested it seems like if I just try to think about engaging the biceps and surrounding muscles, the elbows are more stable without my arms feeling bent.

I lift occasionally as well as recreational climbing and gymnastics. It's totally possible that it's partly a strength problem, or a inadequate-use-of-strength problem.

[Kit_L]

I suggest making the co-contraction your top priority in any support position that compresses the elbow joint. The awareness of how to do this will come quickly (this is a standard technique in gymnastics that is not yet out there widely in the fitness world) and your perceived strength in that part of the body will increase markedly. This co-contraction is what we mean when we talk about "bullet-proofing" the joints.

[Rik]

On 12/15/2016 at 8:46 AM, Kit_L said:

I suggest making the co-contraction your top priority in any support position that compresses the elbow joint. The awareness of how to do this will come quickly (this is a standard technique in gymnastics that is not yet out there widely in the fitness world) and your perceived strength in that part of the body will increase markedly. This co-contraction is what we mean when we talk about "bullet-proofing" the joints.

To be precise, do you recommend this for people with hyperextended elbows, or the population in general? For the general population there are some very knowledgeable people who recommend just sitting on the structure: Yuri Marmerstein recommends so explicitly, and I've never heard @Emmet Louis tell me to co-contract in a handstand (just in planche).

[Kit_L]

Phi, that recommendation is for people with hyperextended elbows. (It is also one made for hyperextended knees in standing poses.) Nonetheless, it is a valuable exercise for beginners who are not used to supporting weight on straight arms, and it is a feature of our Bodyline work. I recall Yuri recommending tensing everything 'tensible' for beginners on workshops, including pushing the floor away as hard as you can, and later learning how to relax all tension that is not necessary—the first recommendation designed to create strength and awareness at the beginning of the road; the other made somewhere on the road to mastery. All recommendations need to be contextualised, I feel. 

[Jim Pickles]

I suggest it feels comfortable because you are hanging off the ligaments. Also, a stretched joint capsule loses sensitivity, so does not generate sensations. No sensations - until it is too late and damage starts being done, when there will be real problems, and LOTS of sensations. Contract your muscles as others have said.

 

[Emmet Louis]

The contracted bicep cue applies to some movements and not others. In handstands its not applicable to other movements where the elbow can be a potential leverage point then its a must. I.e look at what happens with the forces in a planche versus HS.

[Kit_L]

@Emmet Louis—even with the OP's degree of hyperextension? In this example, the elbow has become a leverage point, and in my view needs all the ancillary help it can get. Agree completely with the planche example, too, BTW.

[Emmet Louis]

@Kit_L I'd tend to go by the rule if its not hurting then its ok. Ie she mentions that it doesn't hurt in HS but does in exercises that mimic the lever I talked about.

That level of hyper extension is quite common on handbalance performers. Though with the caveat of that if someone showed me that level I'd be having them do a lot of elbow prep and bicep curling type exercises.

[nichteilen]

On December 14, 2016 at 7:46 PM, Kit_L said:

I suggest making the co-contraction your top priority in any support position that compresses the elbow joint. The awareness of how to do this will come quickly (this is a standard technique in gymnastics that is not yet out there widely in the fitness world) and your perceived strength in that part of the body will increase markedly. This co-contraction is what we mean when we talk about "bullet-proofing" the joints.

Will do! Interestingly, I think this elbow position is actually a result of gymnastics for me, but because I spent my childhood progressing through recreational programs instead of starting in a developmental or competitive program where they're invested in having kids do things correctly from the beginning, the only instruction I really received about handstands was "put your hands on the ground and kick" and later vague instructions about straight knees and pointed toes. Most of the quality information that I have found about this stuff has come from gymnastics-adjacent operations like yours, not my actual gymnastics training!

On December 18, 2016 at 7:53 AM, Jim Pickles said:

 and LOTS of sensations. 

Ha, in this context that sounds like a thing I do not want!