Solving the neck conundrum

[jaja]

Hi everybody! I've spent the whole evening experimenting with a variety of stretching exercises for my neck, trying to locate the spot that has been causing me a lot of troubles.

In another thread, quite some time ago, I said I thought my problem was with the trapezius, but @Kit_L told me it was probably the levator scapulae what was causing me discomfort; he was right — or so I thought — because the related stretching exercises listed in “Overcome neck and back pain” brought me huge relief. Yet there was a particular line I needed to get into that was constantly eluding my efforts, so the feeling of constant tension remained there.

Today I tried some modifications of the stretches proposed by Kit's book and I spent a good amount of time touching and massaging the muscles at the back and sides of my neck (I realized nearly every one of them would need attention, I should do something about it) and I finally locate the right spot: according to the images I've found online, it's the splenius cervicis muscle.

I still haven't found a way to directly target it, so I'm open to suggestions. What do you think?

I'll keep experimenting and I'll update the thread with new findings.

[Cooper]

Cant comment regarding your specific question, but ill just say that massage really was the key for opening the neck area for me personally. I find massage of particularly importance in this area relative to other parts of the body, for some things no amount of stretching would help but pressure in the right spot gave me instant long lasting relief. I would keep exploring massaging different parts see how that feels, even try stretching and massaging parts at the same time. 

Fingers work fine but I have also had great success using a tool such as this: 

[jaja]

Thank you for your perspective, @Cooper! What kind of massaging did you find more appropriate? How strong the pressure? The neck area is really delicate, I don't wanna hurt myself.

[CraigR]

Hey jaja,

I've had an impingement in my neck for a little while now that comes and goes depending on activity.  

I've been playing with a few different strategies and one in particular has been surprisingly effective.  If you want to humour me, give this a try:

First spend some time to get a really good sense as to how your neck actually feels, and what movements cause the discomfort or feel restricted etc. 

Then go and do something to really pump a lot of blood through your forearms, such as isolated wrist curls and reverse wrist curls.  Or you could try some novel wrist movements like these ones: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hlWgH3_0NU.  Just do enough reps to really feel the forearms working.

Afterwards, recheck how your neck feels with those same movements.

[Cooper]

The best areas to massage are not really on the neck itself but more in the Trapezius area. Try laterally flexing your neck and you might feel some tightness, while its under stretch gently push down on these stretched areas and see how that feels. Pushing on the stretched muscle further increases the stretch, this is a really strong sensation for me and radiates all the way up the head.

Another area that I massage often (great for fixing headaches) is behind the head. If you get both your thumbs and place them behind the head feel for bony bits on both sides then under that you will find there is a sort of ditch. There are some real juicy spots in this area that feel really good. The massage tool in my previous post is particularly good for this area. 

Hope that was an OK explanation but just keep gently exploring different parts at first and play close attention to what is helping. 

 

30 minutes ago, CraigR said:

Hey jaja,

I've had an impingement in my neck for a little while now that comes and goes depending on activity.  

I've been playing with a few different strategies and one in particular has been surprisingly effective.  If you want to humour me, give this a try:

First spend some time to get a really good sense as to how your neck actually feels, and what movements cause the discomfort or feel restricted etc. 

Then go and do something to really pump a lot of blood through your forearms, such as isolated wrist curls and reverse wrist curls.  Or you could try some novel wrist movements like these ones: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hlWgH3_0NU.  Just do enough reps to really feel the forearms working.

Afterwards, recheck how your neck feels with those same movements.

Interesting, what is the goal here? Something to do with blood flow?

[jaja]

10 hours ago, CraigR said:

Hey jaja,

I've had an impingement in my neck for a little while now that comes and goes depending on activity.  

I've been playing with a few different strategies and one in particular has been surprisingly effective.  If you want to humour me, give this a try:

First spend some time to get a really good sense as to how your neck actually feels, and what movements cause the discomfort or feel restricted etc. 

Then go and do something to really pump a lot of blood through your forearms, such as isolated wrist curls and reverse wrist curls.  Or you could try some novel wrist movements like these ones: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hlWgH3_0NU.  Just do enough reps to really feel the forearms working.

Afterwards, recheck how your neck feels with those same movements.

I don't understand the correlation, but I'm gonna give this a try; what have I to lose, after all?

10 hours ago, Cooper said:

The best areas to massage are not really on the neck itself but more in the Trapezius area. Try laterally flexing your neck and you might feel some tightness, while its under stretch gently push down on these stretched areas and see how that feels. Pushing on the stretched muscle further increases the stretch, this is a really strong sensation for me and radiates all the way up the head.

Another area that I massage often (great for fixing headaches) is behind the head. If you get both your thumbs and place them behind the head feel for bony bits on both sides then under that you will find there is a sort of ditch. There are some real juicy spots in this area that feel really good. The massage tool in my previous post is particularly good for this area. 

Hope that was an OK explanation but just keep gently exploring different parts at first and play close attention to what is helping. 

Really helpful, thank you!

[CraigR]

@Cooper and @jaja, I've been learning a few "party tricks" from a practitioner who has worked extensively with a lot of professional athletes around the world, and he noticed certain patterns of tension throughout the body that resulted in pain being experienced in seemingly unrelated areas.  He started simply getting blood flowing through this stressed tissue and noticed that pain dropped away instantly.  One of those patterns was tension throughout the shoulders, upper and particularly forearms resulting in pain through the neck and upper back.

So start with pumping blood through the forearms and check to see if there's any improvement, if not try some bicep curls and tricep extensions etc to get blood flowing through the upper arms and check again for any improvement.  If not, try shoulders and check again.

This is definitely the case with my neck; I simply perform the novel wrist movements and the pain completely disappears.  

Interestingly I had already noticed this but hadn't formed the connection.  I have taught some workshops when my neck was giving me some issues and the pain had disappeared by the end of the workshop without actually working on the neck area at all.  So I knew there was something I was doing that was unrelated to direct neck work that helped.  I just didn't know what it was.

Definitely try it and see, it can't hurt and might even help.

[Nathan]

I thought about jumping in and mentioning my own experience, but hadn't done so yet. Since @CraigR touched on it, I'll add my two cents.

I've had "neck problems" for as long as I can remember. I was a pretty rowdy kid - jumping off of houses and the general stupid stuff  So I just figured I had messed my neck up, and I went to the chiropractor pretty regularly in HS and afterward. That always seemed to help a bit, but only for a while. I found some good chiros here in Japan as well, but I already knew the drill: get things put "back into place" (neck was always a mess) and it would all be good until my patterns of tension pulled them back out.

Anyways, I started figuring out that it wasn't actually my neck that was the problem, but other things pulling the neck out of whack. For me, I've found that it is my upper back (primarily) and a bit pec minor. When my neck is bothering me, a good rolling of the upper back area and maybe a few dislocates with a stick almost always get rid of any pain. I think it will be a similar case for most people. The source of the problem is almost never (just) the area that hurts. Now it's just a matter of loosening up the problem areas on a more permanent basis so that I don't need to roll them out for relief

[Cooper]

Very true... the neck seems to be one of those areas where distant problems seem to manifest in the neck itself. The same rings true for the hips I find, for example problems with my ankle leading to a problem in my hip, of course you could look it at the other way round as well. Who knows where the problem first began the important thing is we notice and effectively fix them!

[jaja]

Thanks for your insight, @Nathan. I'm very aware the root issue is not the neck, but rather my pec minors (and possibly HF), the techniques I'm exploring in this thread are just meant to release the tension is already present; they won't do much to prevent further tension to accumulate. It's odd, I feel like a blind man trying picture how the world looks.

[Craig]

jaja,

if you haven't already, sink some time (10 mins a day for at least 60 days straight, after that continuing a few times a week) into learning to lift the arms without activating the traps.  Making this the default state will give all sorts of relief to the traps, lev scap, etc.

On top of that once per week do, in this order, the following:

• human crossbow partner pec minor release
• shoulder push down partner trap release
• 10 mins lifting with the armpits

You can also add daily soft tissue work with a massage tool like the one talked about above, and daily explorations of the solo neck stretches in ONBP. Give it 3 months to start seing the big changes (of course small ones in there from day 1), and 1 - 2 years for the really big changes to set in the system as default - they will go loose and then get stiff again, you need to keep encouraging this until it sets. I would also recommend stopping handstands and other such trap dominant exercises while you are working on this, as encouraging tension into the traps is counterproductive to trying to remove tension from the traps - you can introduce this at a later time once the traps are settled.

Hope this helps

Craig

[jaja]

Really useful suggestions, @Craig, thank you!

1 hour ago, Craig said:

if you haven't already, sink some time (10 mins a day for at least 60 days straight, after that continuing a few times a week) into learning to lift the arms without activating the traps.

This is quite challenging. What muscle should I use? The latissimus dorsi? Any exercises I should look up?

1 hour ago, Craig said:

On top of that once per week do, in this order, the following:

• human crossbow partner pec minor release
• shoulder push down partner trap release
• 10 mins lifting with the armpits

Already on my bucket list, hopefully I'll start next week. 

1 hour ago, Craig said:

I would also recommend stopping handstands and other such trap dominant exercises while you are working on this, as encouraging tension into the traps is counterproductive to trying to remove tension from the traps - you can introduce this at a later time once the traps are settled.

Are pushups ok? They're part of my routine, at the moment.

1 hour ago, Craig said:

Hope this helps

Tremendously! You're the man!

[Cooper]

I believe what @Craig is talking about when he says lifting without the traps is described in his lifting with the armpits tutorial:

https://awarerelaxedconnected.uscreen.io/programs/lifting-with-the-armpits

I personally have been working on this for awhile now and was amazed how difficult it was at the start but definitely a very useful skill to incorporate into daily life. Its crazy just how much we rely on our traps and how they are almost chronically contracted in modern society.

Also Craig a question for you, is there an solo equivalent for the shoulder push down partner stretch?

[Craig]

@jaja push-ups are fine, just keep the shoulders depressed. More details in the armpits tutorial as Cooper mentioned.

@Cooper glad to hear the tutorial is helping! The only other way I've seen that has equivalent results as the partner stretches are using my Icelandic friend Einar's device. Unfortunately he is in the process of getting patents and manufacturing sorted so until this is all done, I can't share information on it. They will be available for purchase in the next 6 months to year I believe. So until then you'll just have to find a partner to press down on your shoulders once per week, or go in search of methods that I might not have seen. You can also get the results just by long term development of the armpit activation practices and implementation of that connection in as many movements as possible. 

[jaja]

Yesterday I did a stretching routine with the assistance of a ST certificate teacher, our main focus was on chest and shoulders/neck.

HOLY. COW. The shoulder push down (coupled with few neck stretches) was something I really needed and I probably should do on a daily basis, too bad I don't have easy access to partners; as suspected, my left side is so much tighter than the right one: the splenius was really burning, but it was also an oddly relieving sensation. The crossbow left me wonderfully free in the chest area, left aside some minor restriction in the diaphragm; I can only imagine the profound effects of several minutes spent doing chest-opneing stretchings with a partner, maybe coupled with a passive back-bend! I really envy you, guys! I also realized I probably need to pay attention to my scalenes also.

Today is another day, though: most of my restrictions are back, plus my left shoulder (splenius + levator scapulae) is really tight. I wonder if it's a side effect of the release it experienced yesterday.

Lifting arms with armpits: I'm working on it daily, but probably for less than 10 minutes a day.

[Jim Pickles]

@Cooper -" Another area that I massage often (great for fixing headaches) is behind the head. If you get both your thumbs and place them behind the head feel for bony bits on both sides then under that you will find there is a sort of ditch. There are some real juicy spots in this area that feel really good. The massage tool in my previous post is particularly good for this area.  "

Another good spot is just above that area - the inch or so above the edge of the skull in the centre. There are two slight dish-shaped hollows on either side of the centre line of the skull there. This is where some muscles attach. However a big nerve (the greater occipital nerve) that innervates a lot of the scalp and head goes through the muscle attachments and enters the skull there. Tension in those muscles will stimulate the nerves. Gentle light rotating massage on those areas can give a lot of relief. Try it  - its fantastic if you get the right area.

[Mark H]

A nice partner stretch to get into the 'ditch' @Jim Pickles is talking about.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=8feuIaLy7qQ&index=13&list=PL_ltX20ZnXSJUmJ8cfK57O5Mhj-U9sIWa

Edited December 9, 2016 by Mark H
learning how to drive this thing

[jaja]

On 9/12/2016 at 7:00 AM, Mark H said:

A nice partner stretch to get into the 'ditch' @Jim Pickles is talking about.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=8feuIaLy7qQ&index=13&list=PL_ltX20ZnXSJUmJ8cfK57O5Mhj-U9sIWa

This feels so good just by watching the video. I have the feeling there's no solo version for that, am I right?

[Mark H]

No easy solo version. I've played around with using my own hands or massage balls to anchor the occipital ridge, but nothing really comes close to a partner.

[Kit_L]

@jaja: there is a solo equivalent. Place your fingers on the side of your head, and place the thumbs on the sub-occipitals. Use your arm strength to lever the tips of the thumbs through your skull towards the eyebrows until you feel the sensation in the muscle you are targeting. Then make the most subtle of head tilting/flexion/circles while pressing. Actively let the thumb pressure enter these muscles.

Re. solo version of the shoulder pushdown: while the partner version has its own virtues, I can duplicate 95% of it solo: sit on feet, lengthen torso, tilt (no rotation) head to side, reach up and cradle skull with arm on that side, and use arm to increase the neck lateral flexion. Then put your awareness in the opposite arm and shoulder, and use your lats to pull that shoulder down to the floor, slowly and carefully. This will increase the tension massively. Contraction: head back against arm. Re-stretch: neck further to side and/or pull shoulder down harder. Hold for at least 30". Then, while maintaining maximum lateral flexion and shoulder depression, draw the head very slowly forwards: it will feel like a hundred new muscles are coming to the party. You can work out the rest.

[jaja]

Thank you a lot, really valuable informations! I'll try then asap and report back.

[jaja]

I've been doing the solo version of the shoulder pushdown for the last few days, discovering interesting sensations, especially when I proceed to explore various lines of the neck by drawing the head forward.

What I want to report, though, is the sensation I feel when doing the first stretch (head to the side). While on the right side it feels like a normal stretch, on the left the sensation is much sharper and localized roughly under the ear's lobe; the best way I can describe it is it's like someone is poking me with a stick in that particular spot. Since the area is delicate, I'd like to know if it's best to be gentle or if I could benefit by holding the position for a long time.

The other “solo” stretching Kit suggested did almost nothing to me, but it's possible I did something wrong, so I'll try again.

[Nathan]

11 hours ago, jaja said:

I'd like to know if it's best to be gentle or if I could benefit by holding the position for a long time.

Perhaps both? I'd suggest asking your body  When I find a delicate spot like that, I will be very gentle, but also spend a good bit of time exploring it to learn more. This not only gives me time to explore angles and lines, but also allows me to spend a good amount of time in the stretch. After doing this once or twice, I usually have a good idea of whether the extended time seems to benefit or not.

[jaja]

I've a question for @Craig.

I'm experimenting with the armpit activation during arms movement (not just lifting) and, although it still is far from an automatic response, I think I have a better grasp now: I can drive using almost only those muscles. Unfortunately I'm noticing I tend to tense my torso when, for example, I lift my arms over the head; sometimes I have to bring the focus on my breath because otherwise I would automatically hold it. Do you have any suggestion?

[Craig]

Good! Progress is always good. Keep practicing until it is somewhat the default method of lifting the arms. Once this is in place your can shift your intention to attempting to drop excessive tension and have the arm sit heavily on the armpit connection instead of forcing it there. 

Also if you have some time get a partner to do the ST shoulder push down partner stretch and then see how much easier it is to keep this connection after - try to do 15 minutes of practice on something that uses the connection immediately after doing the stretch. Shi Da Pan #6 is a good example of an appropriate exercise!