Searching for a good training style

[jaja]

Forgive me if this is not the right section where ask about this subject.

It's been seven months since the last time I've properly trained my body and I think it's time to get back to work, the problem is I don't know what I'm really looking for. My experience is limited to weightlifting and yoga; I'll for sure keep the latter as part of my routine, but I've come to a point where lifting weights doesn't really resonate for me. What I (think I) need is a type of training where I can develop harmoniously my body, where I can maximize my range of motion while simultaneously increase my strength and build some mass; the problem is I've no clue what would be the best suited activity!

There's an emerging popularity of circuit trainings like CrossFit or TacFit, could they do the job? I'm skeptical about them since it's relatively easy for me to get injured, probably because of my muscle imbalances.

 

What do you think?

[MarkusO]

I see a trend towards a mixture of both, bodyweight training and weight lifting, blended with some explorative movement sessions that actually lets you apply the huge amounts of strength and flexibilty that you will gain. What is the reason for having all that skills without applying them anyway? I don't think Crossfit will cover all your needs. Depending on your background I would either try to come up with an own schedule that covers all those needs or look for an (online) coaching method that does that. @Emmet Louis is doing some great teaching in this area from what I know, maybe he is the right guy for you? There are others too. Speaking of ...

1 hour ago, jaja said:

develop harmoniously my body

... @Frederik just started with his harmonious body project as far as I know and I am sure he also can provide some insight. 

M

 

[jaja]

I have nothing against a modular approach, to be honest I quite like the idea! There's a huge but, though: I don't think I'll be able to find such training program nearby. You seem to be aware of that, since you're suggesting an online coaching, but I have to vent a couple of concerns about this option:

• Is it reliable when it comes to form checking? As I've said, I'm prone to injuries, so perfect form is a top priority for me.
• I'd be happy to train at home, but all the equipment I have is my yoga mat and sadly I can't turn an entire room of my house into a “monkey gym”; I guess this would be a problem.

I'm not dismissing your suggestions, though, in fact I'm open to everything. I really want to rebuild my body from scratch and I'll be thankful to everyone willing to help me.

Maybe @zenwoof is another user who could provide some insight!

[AshwinT]

1 hour ago, jaja said:

As I've said, I'm prone to injuries, so perfect form is a top priority for me.

A very interesting comment for you to repeat.  If perfect form is a top priority for you and you do not trust yourself to execute perfect form by yourself, you need to get a personal trainer.  If you can afford it then that's the way to go.  A second option is to find a reliable training partner who has a high level of proficiency in the exercises you want to do.

Digging deeper into your tendency to get injured will expose a lot.  To be honest it's a huge red flag for me.  Why do you get injured? Are you not listening to your body? Are you pushing yourself beyond what you can do because of ego? Two principles I follow in my own training are 1) always stop if form breaks down 2) never go to failure.  this keeps me relatively injury free.  I still get injuries though... it's just part of life and training.  You have to learn how to train around them.

5 hours ago, jaja said:

What I (think I) need is a type of training where I can develop harmoniously my body, where I can maximize my range of motion while simultaneously increase my strength and build some mass; the problem is I've no clue what would be the best suited activity!

Why do you want to keep yoga in your routine?  Yoga will not help you build mass or increase your range of motion.  Just do Gymnastic strength training coupled with Stretch Therapy work. Gold Medal Bodies has excellent programs with very instructional videos.  You can buy their Floor 1 or Parallettes 1 programs and build good functional strength in a safe way. 

[jaja]

Why do I get injured? It's a good question, actually. I've started only quite recently to really listen to my body, so this maybe was an issue in the past (and possibly even the ego part).

As for now I can say most of my problems come from the hips; I'm "blocked" down there: I've APT, tight adductors and stiff piriformis. All this caused me an athletic pubalgia that made me stop exercising altogether for three years. Of course that stop, I lately discovered, wasn't really necessary: apparently most physicians aren't so competent when dealing with this type of issues.

Ankles are another major weak point: my dorsiflexion is so bad I even struggle to find appropriate ways to stretch my calves (yes, I've even purchased Kit's squat program). My right knee is considerably worse than my left one and this is really apparent when I do stabilization exercises on one leg.

Stiff ankles and tight hip muscles makes my knees prone to interiorly rotate, this recently led to the inflammation of my right anterior cruciate ligament, which I had reconstructed five years ago.

I think those I've just pointed out are my main issues, hopefully my "injury tendency" is more clear now.

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Why do you want to keep yoga in your routine?

I want to keep practicing yoga because I enjoy it, I feel good afterwards, I made friends thanks to that practice and my studio is a nice environment. It surely doesn't hurt and helps with mobility as well as relaxation.

Last, but not least:

Quote

 If perfect form is a top priority for you and you do not trust yourself to execute perfect form by yourself, you need to get a personal trainer.  If you can afford it then that's the way to go.  A second option is to find a reliable training partner who has a high level of proficiency in the exercises you want to do.

The easy way for me to find a PT is to get a gym subscription, but, as I've said, a program focused on weightlifting is not so appealing to me at the moment.

 

EDIT: 

Quote

Gold Medal Bodies

I'm going to check this, thanks. =)

[AshwinT]

Okay things are a lot more clear now.

If yoga makes you happy then by all means continue doing it.  I'm all for more happiness in the world :).

So, you have tight hip flexors, quads, adductors, piriformis, and calves.  The MtSquat program is a great place to start.

First, read this post and understand the difference between limbering and stretching.  I am going to recommend you limber 7 days a week.  

We are trying to get your body to be comfortable in the range of motion you want to achieve and remodel the fascia.  Here is a good selection of limbers form MtSquat for you.  Do them as limbers, i.e. do not go to the end of range and do not do any contractions, every day for a few weeks to get your body comfortable in the range.

L3 - Boxing the Compass - just brilliant to explore all lines in the hips.

L7 - Seated figure 4

E1A - Straight leg calf stretch against wall

E1B - Bent leg calf stretch against wall

E5B - Straight leg piriformis with wall support

Do not do any cossack squats since they are quite demoralising if your hips and ankles are tight.  

So what you want to to is lots of micro movements and gentle feeling out the range of motion.  Nothing deep.  You want to breathe and be as relaxed as possible throughout.

Once you've been doing the above for a few weeks and feel pretty good about them, start to convert them into stretches twice a week - i.e. go to end of range and do some contractions as shown in the video.  If after a month things feel a bit better and you are starting to feel more freedom, start to use slightly more difficult versions of the stretches, i.e. E5A instead of E5B.  At this stage you can try to add in E4A, E7 and a bent leg cossack.

 

Fascial remodelling is a long slow process. You cannot force it.  You just have to listen to your body and be patient.

Good Luck,

Ashwin

 

 

 

[Frederik]

Thank you for the mention @MarkusO

Most of the good point have already been raised. If you are doing something you like, by all means keep on doing it ! There is no point in forcing you to do something because it is "better". It has to be sustainable. I would find a way to adding some strength work into this mix, but that is just my inclination.

There is plenty of material on this site on how to increase your flexibility - just keep chipping away at it, focusing on your tighest bit. Getting a good squat should priority #1. I would suggest finding partner(s) to help with this (both for stretching and strength work).

It is not entirely clear what you mean with weightlifting. There is olympic weightlifting (snatch and clean and jerk) and then there is powerlifting (bench, squat and deadlifting). The two are quite distinct, and the training of each is different.

If you are getting injured again and again it obviously speaks to some underlying problem (restriction) that is not being addressed - and the movements being executed with poor form. With good instruction this should not happen. There are ways to get around some of this while you work on your flexibility, take the squat: a pair of weightlifting shoes (or a wooden board under heels) will make this movement accessible to many people.

The problem with giving general advice is that it is impossible to ascertain what the programs/ classes in your area is like. I would stay the hell away from Crossfit/ Tacfit as a general rule! Yes, there are some 'boxes' that do good work - there are also some that destroy people. Also the "philosophy" of these places are not one that I can support. The same is true with personal trainers - many are not very good (and you need to have some knowledge base around training to discern whether the person is any good). If you can find someone in your area who knows what they are doing, and they have a gym that they go to. Then go to that place!

Doing something like a gymnastics/ bodyweight based program could be a decent place to start. If it interests you then that is cool. You do not have to turn your entire house into a gym! You can get very far with a set of gymnastic rings, parrallets, your yoga mat and possibly a detachable pull up bar. Rings can be hung in a great number of places. All this can even be stored in a box in a cabinet, only coming out when you need to do some work.

You can even do this work outside in a park (just put on some clothes if it gets a bit cold). You can develop your upper body with the most rudimentary setup.

For lower body strength and development (and as a mobility/ flexibility goal) I would be looking to getting the ability to do some barbell squatting. Swings, deadlifts and lunges as well. It simply is the most efficient way to build lower body strength. That said you can start to build strength with bodyweight exercises: single leg squatting progressions, lunges, calf raises, single leg deadlift/ speed skater squats - even something like hill sprinting. This may even be preferrable in the beginning if you have restrictions that prevent the proper execution of said barbell lifts. But for time invested and strength gains squatting is superior. Regardless a great deal can be done with whatever you have.

Above all it has to be enjoyable and sustainable for you.

[michaelsamsel]

For harmonizing, I don't think Pilates can be beat. Not solo or cheap way to go, but changing maladaptive motor recruitment will change your body and life. And it is famous for decreasing injury tendencies

[Emmet Louis]

I agree with @Frederik

@michaelsamsel Can you explain why pilates can't be beat if it contains zero movements that focus on lateral stability and rotational stablity of the spine. Also isn't the reducing injuries aspect of pilates due the to in built fear of doing anything that isn't pilates. So you avoid injury by quitting any other activities.

 

[michaelsamsel]

I'm going by how I look and feel and how others look and feel after Pilates. Emphasis on harmony and grace. All subjective. But go watch a advanced Pilates practitioner walk across, the room. More attractive than an Olympic gymnast IMHO

I'm over my head with explaining any thing in a kinesiological way but professional dancers have extended careers decades overcoming injury. Also there is no prohibition about doing any thing else, most of us live in free countries

[jaja]

Lots to chew on, thank you everybody!

@AshwinT:

I'm familiar with limbering, but I've always neglected because stretching sounds and feels better, so I'm guilt. I'll make sure to integrate some limbering into my daily routine, in fact I started today.

 

@Frederik:

Quote

It is not entirely clear what you mean with weightlifting. There is olympic weightlifting (snatch and clean and jerk) and then there is powerlifting (bench, squat and deadlifting). The two are quite distinct, and the training of each is different.

During the first half of this year I did powerlifting, following a 5x5 program. I was quite satisfied, but at the same time I could feel some dangerous restriction in my body. I'd like to overcome those before resuming any kind of barbell training and I think (but I could be mistaken) bodyweight training could help me maintai…err…building a good physique.

Quote

Also the "philosophy" of these places are not one that I can support.

Could you please expand on that? I'm really curious!

Quote

Doing something like a gymnastics/ bodyweight based program could be a decent place to start. If it interests you then that is cool. You do not have to turn your entire house into a gym! You can get very far with a set of gymnastic rings, parrallets, your yoga mat and possibly a detachable pull up bar. Rings can be hung in a great number of places. All this can even be stored in a box in a cabinet, only coming out when you need to do some work.

As I've said, I like the idea of doing bodyweight training, so I'll definitely follow this suggestion. Do you have a good training program to suggest?

[zenwoof]

What is your top, number one goal? Prioritize your training around that.

I went cold turkey after a decade of weightlifting to go on an all-out assault to balance, soften, and re-pattern my body. I don't care about about my strength or muscle loss, because I don't really care about strength or muscle (right now), and I know how to get that back. The most important goal for me is healing my injuries, and arriving at a more injury-resilient structure for when I eventually decide to start strength or muscle training again. There will still be tension to hunt down, restrictions to free up, body maps to strengthen, sensory amnesia to enliven - which takes priority right now over having jacked fibraz.

[Frederik]

14 hours ago, jaja said:

 

 

As I've said, I like the idea of doing bodyweight training, so I'll definitely follow this suggestion. Do you have a good training program to suggest?

Not of the top of my head.

At least not a program that would take care of everything we are discussing. I am hesitant to recommend any cookie cutter program, because you obviously have specific things that need to be factored in. We have a wonderful community and a workout log forum, so there is always the option of beginning to do stuff and maybe someone will lend you a hand. Do not expect to find every answer in one fell swoop.

With that proviso:

GMB stuff may be worth looking into, but then again I have not tried it myself.

GB I would not use as a program, it is a nice repository of gymnastic exercises (but so is youtube and youtube is free).

Steve Maxwell recently released a program consisting of only isometric exercises. This would have a distinct advantage in that it is quite hard to injure yourself with static holds. This can be done anywhere  (no gym required.) It would allow you to continue working on gaining more mobility/ flexibility and getting to a point where you can safely do a barbell squat.

As a place to start it may be worth investigating. I have certainly been in situations where doing that type of work would have been the best thing that I could possibly have done.

Upper body strength work: It does not have to be complicated just working on compound bodyweight movements a few times a week would do. Pull ups, dips, rows, push ups. Later on muscle ups and levers.

14 hours ago, jaja said:

 

Could you please expand on that? I'm really curious!

 

I do not want to enter into an extended rant. There is the abysmal programming. The completely inappropriate use of olympic lifting as a conditioning exercise. The kipping pull up is a complete abomination. It is a case of doing everything and achieving nothing. The "culture" of these places are the antithesis of what I want to cultivate in myself and others.

 

[SwissDanny]

On 10/1/2016 at 10:28 PM, Frederik said:

I do not want to enter into an extended rant. 

CF has it's pros and cons, I cant argue with the fact it got me fitter and stronger than I'd ever been, got me going back 4-5x per week and encouraged me to learn a lot about training etc.

That said, JaJa it would be completely wrong I feel for you, given your injury concerns and the very introspective/analytical approach you have to your fitness.

 

[jaja]

@zenwoof:

My number one goal? I want freedom, I want to free my body (and mind) from the cage years of bad habits had constricted it in. Therefore I want to release tensions, expand my ROM, learn how to use my body and increase my awareness. Maybe it's too broad of a scope for this specific thread, but I think this goal of mine is what the forum is mostly about.

@Frederik:

Given what I've said above, I think I'll look into Steve Maxwell's program: there's something in isometric exercises that resonates in me, I also feel balance should be a priority for me.

@SwissDanny:

“That said, JaJa it would be completely wrong I feel for you, given your injury concerns and the very introspective/analytical approach you have to your fitness.”

 

Ouch! Could you expand a bit on this? It's unsettling for me.

[jordan]

Maybe Stretch Therapy/re patterning work coupled with dance classes (contemporary?) would be a useful combination of practices.

 

Both of these will help you "release tensions, expand ROM, learn to use your body and increase awareness. A good contemporary beginner class will lay down solid foundations for further dance/movement/improvisation work without being as injury prone as resistance training (especially an amrap style like crossfit)

 

I also recommend simple (but rich) practices like Craig's spinal wave and rolling tutorials, and everything on Simon thakur's YouTube channel (springy body, evolutionary movement patterns..). 

[jordan]

https://youtube.com/watch?list=WL&v=Fh9dP0dwGTY

 

https://youtube.com/watch?list=WL&v=vbfUUKiKMOk

 

---

 

http://awarerelaxedconnected.uscreen.io

 

https://youtube.com/channel/UCI07qbvQTsWQoBp8P9RKEqA

 

https://vimeo.com/181367168

[jaja]

Thank you for your insights, @jordan.

I've never thought about dancing as a way to train my body, mostly because I'm really bad at doing it! Could this be one more reason to give it a try?

Quote

I also recommend simple (but rich) practices like Craig's spinal wave and rolling tutorials, and everything on Simon thakur's YouTube channel (springy body, evolutionary movement patterns..). 

To be honest I'm experimenting with spinal movements: the spinal cord breathing exercises (one and two) seems really similar to Craig's exercises.

[SwissDanny]

6 hours ago, jaja said:

Ouch! Could you expand a bit on this? It's unsettling for me.

It shouldn't be unsettling.  I dont know if this is the right vocabulary, but your goals are not external (ie be able to do X faster/heavier relative to some external benchmark) but seem rather more internal focused (ie feel better versus some ultimately subjective personal benchmark).  Something like CF is heavily focused on the former aspect and certainly involving a way of training/working out, movements and risks that you would not chose to get you towards your goals.

[DavidGrey]

On 2 October 2016 at 7:28 AM, Frederik said:

I do not want to enter into an extended rant. There is the abysmal programming. The completely inappropriate use of olympic lifting as a conditioning exercise. The kipping pull up is a complete abomination. It is a case of doing everything and achieving nothing. The "culture" of these places are the antithesis of what I want to cultivate in myself and others.

Just the perfect size rant if you ask me @Frederik

[jaja]

18 hours ago, SwissDanny said:

It shouldn't be unsettling.  I dont know if this is the right vocabulary, but your goals are not external (ie be able to do X faster/heavier relative to some external benchmark) but seem rather more internal focused (ie feel better versus some ultimately subjective personal benchmark).  Something like CF is heavily focused on the former aspect and certainly involving a way of training/working out, movements and risks that you would not chose to get you towards your goals.

Oh now it's more clear! Yes, you're right: at the moment my priority is “balance”, so to speak, although I don't dislike “gains” at all. 

I have to say probably I'd benefit from an “external focused” type of training, but I feel like I need to build a good foundation first.

[nick_kuchedav]

On 9/30/2016 at 10:19 PM, jaja said:

As for now I can say most of my problems come from the hips; I'm "blocked" down there: I've APT, tight adductors and stiff piriformis. All this caused me an athletic pubalgia that made me stop exercising altogether for three years. Of course that stop, I lately discovered, wasn't really necessary: apparently most physicians aren't so competent when dealing with this type of issues.

In my professional practice most of the the people I meet are somewhat "blocked" down there. It is just a starting point. The greatest tool for this IMO will be stretch therapy + barbell strength training. And I my perspective (reading the thread so far) you need more barbells.

On 10/1/2016 at 0:18 AM, Frederik said:

There is olympic weightlifting (snatch and clean and jerk) and then there is powerlifting (bench, squat and deadlifting). The two are quite distinct, and the training of each is different.

I think the same way. Also the formal O-WL and PL isn't the only form in which you can practice weight/resistance training. I suggest it will be smart to use the best tools for your goal. In one of Kit's book he writes that how fit a person is depends mainly on 3 factors- flexibility strength and endurance. I put in this equation more points but it is a great starting point. 

On 10/1/2016 at 8:52 PM, jaja said:

During the first half of this year I did powerlifting, following a 5x5 program. I was quite satisfied, but at the same time I could feel some dangerous restriction in my body. I'd like to overcome those before resuming any kind of barbell training and I think (but I could be mistaken) bodyweight training could help me maintai…err…building a good physique.

IMO 5x5 for starting point is a mistake, and not properly structure workout can turn off your enthusiasm for further work. This was the case in my experience until I discovered Kit's work and the community here.

On 10/1/2016 at 11:28 PM, Frederik said:

There is the abysmal programming. The completely inappropriate use of olympic lifting as a conditioning exercise. The kipping pull up is a complete abomination. It is a case of doing everything and achieving nothing. The "culture" of these places are the antithesis of what I want to cultivate in myself and others. Perhaps it is all the maladaptive Americanization of all things.

I think you said it so well! In Bulgaria we have a joke about let's say "bad CF boxes"- they did zumba with weights. Just the hardest and most fashionable cardio training.

On 10/1/2016 at 3:26 AM, michaelsamsel said:

For harmonizing, I don't think Pilates can be beat. Not solo or cheap way to go, but changing maladaptive motor recruitment will change your body and life. And it is famous for decreasing injury tendencies

In my experience this isn't true. But I don't say it because I think my opinion is superior, but because I think the only way to say something is better than another one is when you have very strict list with criteria for the comparison. I had a lot of clients coming to me for some injuries after trying Pilates.

On 10/1/2016 at 10:07 PM, zenwoof said:

The most important goal for me is healing my injuries, and arriving at a more injury-resilient structure for when I eventually decide to start strength or muscle training again. There will still be tension to hunt down, restrictions to free up, body maps to strengthen, sensory amnesia to enliven - which takes priority right now over having jacked fibraz.

On your place I would start with Kit's programs and as Frederik said just trying to improve a few basics strength exercises for upper body plus some form of weighted squat for lower body.

[jaja]

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And I my perspective (reading the thread so far) you need more barbells.

May I ask you why?

Quote

IMO 5x5 for starting point is a mistake, and not properly structure workout can turn off your enthusiasm for further work.

So what would be a good starting point for me?

[Craig]

On 10/3/2016 at 2:16 PM, jordan said:

I also recommend simple (but rich) practices like Craig's spinal wave and rolling tutorials, and everything on Simon thakur's YouTube channel (springy body, evolutionary movement patterns..). 

Thanks for the kind words!

On 10/3/2016 at 3:46 PM, jaja said:

To be honest I'm experimenting with spinal movements: the spinal cord breathing exercises (one and two) seems really similar to Craig's exercises.

Those exercises are externally similar to the things I'm doing, but different enough to not get the same results (not bad results, just different). My Qi Gong spinal rolling has an element in it that winds up the nervous system in a way the exercises shown in the clips do not, and the spinal waves cover the lateral and rotational waves and undulations.  

 

On 10/3/2016 at 1:52 PM, jaja said:

@zenwoof:

My number one goal? I want freedom, I want to free my body (and mind) from the cage years of bad habits had constricted it in. Therefore I want to release tensions, expand my ROM, learn how to use my body and increase my awareness. Maybe it's too broad of a scope for this specific thread, but I think this goal of mine is what the forum is mostly about.

If you want to actually do this, you need one (good) teacher, and then do what they say without trying to "out think/out clever" their teachings. There are some online options, or alternatively, you can do a @Frederik and sell all your shit and move across the planet to study from the teachers that teach what you want to learn.  Gotta have some skin in the game at some point

Some recommended options:

• @Kit_L and the ST teachers here are creating a really wonderful community of fantastic teachings. You could actually just drop most (all?) of your other training and focus on ST, it will achieve basically all of what you're after with the exception of "how to use your body", in the sense that you won't learn parkour skills or anything from it.  But you could do ST as your primary thing, and then pick any other art (recommended: any dance, capoeira, parkour, rock climbing, circus arts) to do on the side. Daily limbering and lying deep relaxation, weekly or fortnightly deep stretch sessions, and having it as your PRIMARY practice, will change your life completely. 
• My teacher Serge Augier offers online training in Daoism and martial arts from the tradition of Da Xuan, many people on the forums are also training with Serge. A complete system in itself, and what I have chosen to dedicate myself to.  http://www.daxuanformal.com/ , http://www.daxuancombat.com/
• @Dave's Physical Alchemy crew in sydney.  You'll have to move to Sydney for this, Dave isn't offering online training at this point, but the move would be well worth it. http://www.physicalalchemy.com.au 
• Steve Maxwell (already mentioned).  You can do online training with him - http://www.maxwellsc.com/services.cfm
• I'm taking online students now.  Details here: https://awarerelaxedconnected.com.au/become-a-student/

Sampling and scattering between many methods is not going to achieve what you want - at best it can prepare you well to begin.  You need to dedicate yourself to a single practice/Teacher, and get *good* at that practice. This means you also have to say no to many other good practices. Typically it also means you need to spend (a lot of) money on it, as staying in the free realm can only get you so far.

[SwissDanny]

13 hours ago, Craig said:

Sampling and scattering between many methods is not going to achieve what you want - at best it can prepare you well to begin.  You need to dedicate yourself to a single practice/Teacher, and get *good* at that practice. This means you also have to say no to many other good practices. Typically it also means you need to spend (a lot of) money on it, as staying in the free realm can only get you so far.

This is some wisdom.

A particularly big problem with the internet nowadays, so many people looking for the perfect Goldilocks answer rather than getting stuck in and dedicated to something.  I know; I can be one of them.

I read a piece with parallels, about people buying a new TV or whatever, and those that agonized over the "perfect" purchase were on average unhappier with that purchase than those who just got on a bought the first one that pretty much fit their top few requirements.