Controls on posture?

[Cooper]

In my pursuit in trying to achieve a better posture im trying to figure out what actually controls the resting posture specifically. You can kind of force your body into a good posture but in some ways this can be uncomfortable. For example if you have the typical desk jockey rounded over posture and you try to force yourself into a good position this is of course not going to feel comfortable initially. Now from my experience stretching certain muscles can make this uncomfortable position more comfortable, thus allowing you to go through life with more ease and at the same time in a more functional and efficient posture. This is provided once you have stretched you reinforce this by being mindful of your posture throughout the day.

Now stretching is of course important when it comes to your posture but what effects could having one muscle more stretchy than other be. I guess what im trying to say is where do you find the right balance in ROM between different muscles? Or is the goal just to be as flexible as possible in as many ways as possible as opposed to attempting to balance it all. 

Also muscle strength, besides just being stronger does a muscles strength have a control of how the muscle sits in a resting posture? Could there be any other factors that might play a role in this?

Im probably just overthinking this but would be nice to hear some others thoughts on this. 

[MarkusO]

Just some general thoughts based on my personal experience. Think about releasing tension as opposed to increasing ROM. We all carry unnecessary tension that needs to be decreased as much as possible first in order to let the body return to a more relaxed sate. Only then better posture will reveal itself.

With respect to flexibility most people have issues starting from the ankles all the way up to the neck. The thing is they all affect each other in one way or the other. E.g., tight hip flexors will change your pelvic tilt which will change the alignment of your spine, head, ... 

Try to reset your body into a more natural state by removing restricting tension first and better alignment will come by itself. I would also not strive for 'perfect' alignment as I don't believe there is such a thing.

[Craig]

The body is pretty lazy and will naturally find the path of least resistance when you aren't thinking about some sort of artificial posture. Unfortunately, it can only work with the information it has. In my practice, I strive to be able to feel every part of my body, and be able to control all of the tissue, from complete contraction to compete relaxation, from completely shortened position to completely lengthened position, and in coordination with the rest of the system.

More recently I have been playing with finding the tissues in the body that take issue (normally in the form of a cramp) to contracting strongly. I contact said muscles, and bear with the cramp as long as I can. Slowly they are getting less cramps and learning to contact properly.

Interestingly, these tissues all seem to be antagonistic to tissues that are tense and I cannot feel very well, but have been coming more into my awareness as they get relaxed and lengthened by the reciprocal inhibition reflex.

As for the coordination element, it doesn't matter if you've got the best sitting posture, if you're unable to coordinate the whole system then as soon as you move you will be fighting yourself. it's best to practice a wide range of complex movements such as dance, marital arts, gymnastics etc to at least maintain or improve this.

[Cooper]

Just some general thoughts based on my personal experience. Think about releasing tension as opposed to increasing ROM. We all carry unnecessary tension that needs to be decreased as much as possible first in order to let the body return to a more relaxed sate. Only then better posture will reveal itself.

With respect to flexibility most people have issues starting from the ankles all the way up to the neck. The thing is they all affect each other in one way or the other. E.g., tight hip flexors will change your pelvic tilt which will change the alignment of your spine, head, ... 

Try to reset your body into a more natural state by removing restricting tension first and better alignment will come by itself. I would also not strive for 'perfect' alignment as I don't believe there is such a thing.

I started practicing yoga a bit over 2 years now and better posture sort of came naturally without even realising it, but the more I learn about myself the more problems that seem to arise. Its a constant battle! Agree on your point regarding perfect posture, I guess this is sort of a journey that never really ends. 

 

 

The body is pretty lazy and will naturally find the path of least resistance when you aren't thinking about some sort of artificial posture. Unfortunately, it can only work with the information it has. In my practice, I strive to be able to feel every part of my body, and be able to control all of the tissue, from complete contraction to compete relaxation, from completely shortened position to completely lengthened position, and in coordination with the rest of the system.

More recently I have been playing with finding the tissues in the body that take issue (normally in the form of a cramp) to contracting strongly. I contact said muscles, and bear with the cramp as long as I can. Slowly they are getting less cramps and learning to contact properly.

Interestingly, these tissues all seem to be antagonistic to tissues that are tense and I cannot feel very well, but have been coming more into my awareness as they get relaxed and lengthened by the reciprocal inhibition reflex.

As for the coordination element, it doesn't matter if you've got the best sitting posture, if you're unable to coordinate the whole system then as soon as you move you will be fighting yourself. it's best to practice a wide range of complex movements such as dance, marital arts, gymnastics etc to at least maintain or improve this.

Interesting point regarding the cramping I will experiment and see if I notice the same. A wide variety of movement is important for sure, ive recently gotten into some parkour very fun and has brought attention to some things like how weak and inflexible my dam wrists are. 

[Kit_L]

coops, welcome to the forums. This (posture) has been discussed here many times; search on "posture" to see the many interesting on the subject. 

 

My short perspective on posture is this: remove all the obvious (and some non-obvious) restrictions to positioning the body and see what shape emerges by itself. In this regard the most important muscles by far are the hip flexors. If you search here on "posture" and "hip flexors" you will  find a wealth of information.

 

And don't spend too long sitting either; I have recently constructed a standing desk for this very reason. Plenty of posts on this alternative here too if you search.

[Cooper]

coops, welcome to the forums. This (posture) has been discussed here many times; search on "posture" to see the many interesting on the subject. 

 

My short perspective on posture is this: remove all the obvious (and some non-obvious) restrictions to positioning the body and see what shape emerges by itself. In this regard the most important muscles by far are the hip flexors. If you search here on "posture" and "hip flexors" you will  find a wealth of information.

 

And don't spend too long sitting either; I have recently constructed a standing desk for this very reason. Plenty of posts on this alternative here too if you search.

Yes this makes sense, if I stand and try to relax my body as much as possible the resulting shape is less than desirable. In my mind if i remove the restrictions this relaxed state should present a better overall shape to the body. Good point regarding the hip flexors, I have had great results stretching them. Ill have a search and see what I can find, thanks Kit!

[Kit_L]

You say above that if you stand and try to relax your body as much as possible the resulting shape is less than desirable; in the beginning of the stretching process this is extremely common. On my workshops I show that the anterior lumbar curve and the tension necessary to stand upright (strongest in the middle and upper back) disappears completely once the hip flexors have been stretched thoroughly. The point is that when you're standing relaxed you are not correcting the alignment that results from any restrictions in your body, but as soon as you lose those restrictions your own shape will emerge by itself and with almost no effort at all.

 

I have described this elsewhere in more detail but let me describe it again. Stand with your weight on your feet and reach one hand behind you and use the back of your hand to feel the tension in the erector spinae muscles. If your hip flexors are tight (almost guaranteed these days) the tension you can feel is what is needed to pull the upper body backwards over the balance point. 

 

Now, this is how you test this assertion: keeping your hand in place bend your knees slightly and very slightly tuck your tail (this is millimetres only) – you will be amazed to find that the tension in erector spinae will disappear completely when you find the correct point. In other words (and I demonstrate this on workshops all around the world) it is possible to stand up straight and have all the muscles in your body, including leg muscles, soft once you remove the restrictions. There's more, but I have work to do!

[Cooper]

I definitely do feel a slight release in tension but not too much. I actually consider my hips to be one of the most mobile parts of my body. I tried out your solo hip flexor stretch and I seem to able to getting pretty deep without too much effort, also my pigeon pose is quite good. I can also get into quite a deep squat when you take ankles out the equation.   

When I try to stand relaxed as possible my pelvis takes on a form closer to neutral maybe even slightly posterior tilt. Also when standing relaxed the majority of the tension i feel is in my hamstrings primarily. Since starting yoga about 2 years ago I have made great gains in my hips/backbends/shoulders but despite stretching hamstrings constantly I have made very minimal progress. I just cant seem to relax the hamstrings enough after the contraction phase, I also have the same issue in my ankles.  

 

I think my glutes may also be very weak and asleep (especially the right side), is this usually associated with tight hamstrings? In fact ive found my body is quite asymmetrical the right side seems to be slightly internally rotated and tighter overall, lately ive been trying to be more honest and balance my stretching more instead of just pushing each side just as hard. Strengthening certain muscles seems to be quite important as well, I had been experiencing some groin pain for awhile and through some simple lying hip abduction exercises it went away very quickly. Trying to balance out my glute strength to hopefully put the pelvis in a more stable position as well. 

Just some thoughts, hopefully im on the right track here. Let me know what you think.

[Jim Pickles]

@coops - from your posting I wonder if you are what is called "anterior dominant" - that is, you may be using muscles on the front of the body (e.g. quads) too much instead of hamstrings. This leads to hamstrings and glutes being both weak and tight. I suggest you search for "The Founder" on Youtube, and try the sequence. I have students who are like this, and now we do this sequence routinely in every class, and they love it. This exercises strengthens, stretches, and braces the muscles all along the back of the body.

 

See e.g.

 

Jim.

[Cooper]

Wow that hamstring stretch was amazing, I could actually relax into it. Ive experimented with trying with bent legs before but never thought of sticking my butt out and keeping the shins at right angle to the floor, it really let me control the stretch much easier. My low back seems to tire quite easily when doing this as well, looks like I may be anterior dominant. Thanks Jim, I feel like I might actually make some progress with this one!

[Jim Pickles]

@coops - glad you like it. Yes, the lower back will tire quite quickly as the muscles are working hard and may be weak, but that of course will go as you get stronger. Best wishes with it,

 

Jim.

[Cooper]

My hamstrings seem to get DOMS pretty easily just from stretching, could this be a sign that they are weak and need strengthening? It seems like muscles in my body that are weak and underused do not respond well to stretching.

[Jim Pickles]

@coops - to your last query, I dont know. Maybe somone else can say.

 

However, have you tried the Elephant Walk, which is a novel bent-leg hamstring stretch that seems very effective? Its in the Master the Pike series in Kit's On Demand videos on Vimeo, no 1. L1.

 

If I try to put the URL into this posting it says URL embed code not valid or something (I'm sure there is a trick to it but I I dont know it).

 

Cheers, Jim.

[Jim Pickles]

[Cooper]

The video you linked didn't work but I had a google and found this:

Is this the exercise you are talking about? Also what do you mean when you use the word novel?

As far as this exercise goes I cant really get my hands flat on the floor even when bending my knees and flexing my back (thats how inflexible my hamstrings are) so it makes the exercise kinda hard. I can sort of go up onto my toes and lean forward bit which kinda works. I shall experiment some more. 

[Nathan]

That's something else coops. Jim was linking the Master the Pike series (https://vimeo.com/ondemand/masterthepike) on Vimeo. Specifically, the elephant walk video can be found here: https://vimeo.com/ondemand/masterthepike/111655899.

[Cooper]

Ok I just purchased Master the Pike and wow after trying that elephant walk my hamstrings haven't felt that loose in years! Unweighting the hamstrings was the key, gonna do this one everyday for sure! Im also working through Master the Squat at the moment, mainly the ankle stuff. Do you think an increase in hamstring flexibility could help for my squat?

[Jim Pickles]

@coops - for squats, lots of different things are involved. I dont think you can do better than working through the Master the Squat series as you are already doing.

 

Jim.

[Kit_L]

Sorry; I have been working on setting up the studio and equipment for the new programs; we are good to go of five minutes ago.

 

coops, strengthening the glutes in your situation is #1 priority. The exercises Jim has linked you to are an excellent start; to supercharge that same line (and to balance any R–L differences, something Eric's video does not take into account and which can be important), try this (just the speed skater part, the first exercise):

 

 

You will see the mechanics are similar, but the stress is much greater, and this is a non-trivial balance component. All good.

 

Another comment, and an aside, on Eric's video: the extension movements (in his version of the standing hip flexor stretch) is better avoided by people in pain, in my experience; this position and its attendant stress, can trigger a massive spasm response in the lumbar muscles. Our floor so HF is much safer. I think Eric's "Foundation" is a good starting movement, though. There are no analogue movements or positions in yoga, in my experience, and many yogis are very weak in the glutes. Strengthening the glutes will take the stress away from the hamstrings – and your hamstring DOMS may be a thing of the past if the glutes get strong enough.

 

Think about it this way: if you don't have strong glutes, the only muscles the body can use to do the same job of extending the hips are the lower back muscles and the hamstrings. QED.

[Cooper]

This exercise is much better, was finding the foundation exercise not intense enough and it doesn't help balance the glutes like you said. After trying this the right side is weaker for sure, also recently ive noticed my right glute even feels smaller compared to the left! That definitely cant be good. 

Anyways look like ive got some work to do, thanks again Kit can't wait for the Brisbane workshop in may!