Maurice

I’m gaining flexibility using “my method”. It’s not new. I just believe I’m going about it a different way than most. I am not stuck or plateaued. Why fix something that isn’t broken? I said on many occasions there are other methods to increase flexibility. I never said my approach is the only way. Even the method I think is not a good one, static stretching, has proven useful to many people. I would be a fool to not believe the “evidence”. I never told others to stop using your techniques or that they were a waste of time. My whole objective was around MY GOALS. I wasn’t trying to convert anyone to my way. I was trying to improve what was already proving useful TO ME. Again, I know there are other methods that would achieve a similar result. And I know you use isometric stretching as ONE of your methods. For some reason, doing Isometric Stretching is benefiting ME in ways that no one else has experienced themselves. If it wasn’t working for ME, I would do other methods like what everyone else is doing. No one has considered my “counter-positions” either. The same thing I’m being accused of is what I see you all doing to me. It’s an endless loop of “I’m right and your wrong.” I’m even being accused of saying things I didn’t say nor imply. You think your other methods are better for various things and I believe one method is great for everything. I’m testing it on MY body. You all have nothing to lose in this. If I’m wrong, you can just sit back and laugh and say I told you so. I said I don’t want to argue. I don’t plan on adding anything else to this thread unless questions are asked. I already said I’ll just have to post my results to prove my point for myself. According to what people have said, I shouldn’t be able to increase my Active Flexibility with just lengthened end range strengthening. I’m curious to find out if that is really true. Among other things. I’m not looking for test subjects or to bash anyone’s work. I’m using a method that is working for ALL of MY flexibility needs and was simply seeking help to fine tune it. The discussion obviously didn’t go how I would have liked. I will post my progress on a different thread. There is nothing more I can do or say. I hope what everyone else is doing keeps giving them the great results they desire. I hold no ill will toward anyone

No worries at all. Most of it was me arguing with everyone else. I didn’t really get to the point until the later messages anyway. I use “Isometric Stretching” as the term because I feel it covers the bases. The version I do would indeed be “overcoming isometrics” because maximal contraction is the goal. But you don’t need to be in a stretched position for all “Overcoming Isometrics” whereas I believe that is a key aspect to the approach. Maybe I can say “Overcoming Isometric Stretching” to help clarify. I agree. I believe the more strength potential you have, the faster your gains will be. “Beginner Gains” as it were. The stronger you become/less potential you have/closer to the genetic ceiling, the slower the progress. I am very weak, like most people, in the lengthened end range so the results come very quickly as I’d expect. It is hard enough to be very creative even though I’m extremely weak. It becomes much more difficult the stronger each muscle becomes. What position worked when I was a complete beginner may be borderline useless when I get much stronger. If I always had a lifting partner, it would be a lot easier. They could apply force in all directions. Unfortunately gravity, the main force at my disposal while alone, only applies force straight down. Thanks for the tip. My desire was to meet others that may have put their creativity to the test and figured out the best ways already to go about “Overcoming Isometric Stretching”. Or at least help me find a way. The more minds the better

Hey Emmet I appreciate the reply. I did define Isometric as muscle length constant under tension while Isotonic is muscle length changing under tension. If a person could perform a perfect planche, iron cross, front/back lever, etc., they would be doing Isometrics because they wouldn’t/shouldn’t be moving when they get into position. That’s extremely difficult to pull off correctly. I also stated in one message the planche and iron cross as not being good Isometric exercises for training lengthened end range strength. They are compound skills/exercises and they don’t put any target muscle in its fully lengthened/stretched position. It’s difficult to maximally contract one muscle when you are using so many muscles at the same time as well. The only muscle group close to full length under tension in the planche and iron cross are the biceps. Who does the planche or iron cross for the purpose of lengthened end range bicep strengthening? There are plenty of better ways to go about that. I try to isolate the target muscle as much as I can, put it in a stretched position, and maximally contract against an immovable force/object. The floor or wall are good objects to use. The problem is sometimes my bodyweight isn’t heavy enough to be an “immovable object” for the target muscle. Muscle groups like the calves and glutes are really strong in proportion to my bodyweight.

That seems like the best option to me. I may think Isometric Stretching is the supposed “holy grail” of Flexibility/Strength training, but showing the results is more powerful than anything I can say. I mentioned I didn’t think my results were “impressive enough” to deem “miraculous” but others may view them differently. I may just be delusional. I only have been messing around with Isometric Stretching for a couple months and I’m still digging deeper trying to fine tune it. No matter how “miraculous”, results take time. Almost every training session has been different so it would be difficult to explain why I do certain Isometric Stretches. I’m currently trying to compile a list of all the different muscles/muscle groups and the best ways to target them as individually as possible. I didn’t want people thinking I was trying to sway others from the ST system or act like I was all knowing. I am happy to focus specifically on Isometric Stretching my way and be my own test subject. Maybe I can post each Flexibility/Strength milestone (Front Splits, Side splits, planche, 1-arm chin-up for example) and talk about how I achieved each one.

You’re right, I don’t get everything about ST. I never said it was a bad system or that it doesn’t work. There are many aspects to it and each aspect seems to have different benefits. Throughout my research, I found out that people like Emmet Louis and Kit were on the same general page as I was when it came to Flexibilty training. It seemed they found methods they liked or were always looking for ways to improve. I wasn’t looking for a new system to try. I wanted to talk with like minded individuals that would hopefully understand me. I wasn’t at a stand still and needing help. I didn’t say my pancake sucks, my active flexibility is trash, or my hips are too tight to squat properly. I am already making great progress doing what I’m doing and wanted to see if I could fine tune the method a bit more. Since Isometric Stretching is one method used in ST, I thought I could get some useful info on that one method. I’m honestly not sure what everyone thinks is the real reason for me being on the forum or reaching out to Kit in the first place. To me, it seems like everyone thinks I view ST in a negative light. But I don’t think badly of it at all. The benefits people are getting from following ST and how highly they view it is similar to how highly I view the method I’m using because of its benefits. ST covers many different topics and has a plethora of information. I just so happen to want to focus on one specific thing

Maybe “shutting me down” was too extreme of a phrase. Both sides (You all and myself) have done lots of research, talked to many people, and tried many different methods throughout our lives. We get to a point where enough “evidence” proves a point so it becomes as good as fact to us. So if someone presents information contrary to these “facts”, like I have done a few times throughout the discussion, you all think I’m mistaken. Which is reasonable in my opinion. You all proceed to try to get me to realize the fallacy in my logic but I keep fighting back. I’ll admit I’m a bit passionate. That may cloud my judgment. But since I think I found a “miracle method”, why would I do other methods that I feel are inferior in the pursuit of my goals? You all seem to care that I have the “right” information. I appreciate you all looking out for my best interests. Only time will tell if I hit a gold mine or if I’m a just a delusional person. I’ll keep you all posted on the results for sure

I understand. But I’m saying strength gains increase the most for the TUT with maximal muscle contraction. The most force your muscle can produce for the longest time possible (which is about 10 seconds give or take). So 95-100%. The further you are from 100%, the less benefit it will have. If you are contracting the muscle at 0-80%, it doesn’t matter if you last 5 minutes. You can only maximally contract a muscle for a very short time

I read the details of the link. That is indeed a form of isometric Stretching. And I do believe his claim of “This method boasts a 100% success rate with my clients. Were they all genetic freaks? No. But they did all have the mental and physical fortitude to stick with this plan. If you do too, then you will do full splits also. I guarantee it." Most plans fail because people fail, not the plan. If you stick to the plan, you will get results. If you cheat or slack off, you will get suboptimal results. That being said, you can’t maximally contract (100%) a muscle for 3 minutes. 3 minutes is in way into muscle endurance territory, not muscle strength (There is some crossover though). Maximal contractions are anaerobic. A muscle can only contract for a short period of time without oxygen. Someone can increase there bench press by doing 30+ Reps per set. It would be better for muscle strength if they upped the weight and did 1-6 reps. Increasing the work time (Time under Tension) by too much has diminishing returns if the goal is pure strength

That’s what I’m trying to perfect or at least make better. I come from a weight lifting background. For maximal strength benefit, I typically did 3-5 sets, for 3-6 Reps, with heavy weight. The heavier weight allowed me to do near-maximal muscle contractions. I was eventually able to bench press over 400lbs, while my squat and deadlift were over 500lbs. Since I believe Flexibilty and Strength are very closely related, maximizing strength gains will lead to maximizing flexibility gains. Maximal muscle contraction at the lengthened end range is the goal. Since Isometric Stretching is Isometric (muscle length constant) and not Isotonic (muscle length changing), I have to convert accordingly. You can only contract your muscle maximally for a certain period of time before you burn out anyway because of the anaerobic nature (You can only do a full force sprint for so long before you run out of energy). I found some info where 9-12 second isometric holds is roughly equal to 3-5 repetitions. Currently I do 10 seconds max contraction holds for 2-4 sets depending on the muscle I’m strengthening. Typically I only target the same muscle once a week. Maybe twice if I want faster results for a specific muscle

I know Isometric stretching is used in ST. It is one of many different methods used in the system. I just feel it is a resource that has way more potential than what it’s used or given credit for. I’ve said many times that isometric stretching was specifically for the benefit of flexibility. It just so happens to benefit a lot more than that as well. I know everyone here is not seeking flexibility exclusively. I encourage you to continue the pursuits you are more interested in. Like “suppleness”, for example. I even stated isometric stretching is nothing new. It’s been being taught for decades at least. But like the “extreme” example you mentioned, I feel isometric stretching is not always used to the full potential. I’m attempting to delve deeper into the method and find the hidden gems that so many great minds overlooked. The specific result I was seeking is Increasing overall flexibility. You need strength and flexibility for dynamic high kicks. Isometric stretching builds strength and flexibility simultaneously. If my assertions are correct, it should allow me to be able to do dynamic high kicks without training specifically for them. I know “Flexibilty training is a bit more than just doing the splits.” Just like strength is more than being able to bench press heavy weight. The splits is a general example that shows the person has much more flexibility than average. At least in their lower body. Here are a couple examples in one quote (it’s hard for me to quote messages on different pages) On 12/7/2018 at 9:16 PM, Nathan said: “Similarly to the mind/body division being illusory, the clear division between pieces of the body is false, as well. Everything in the body is connected, and muscles do not function in isolation. Here we are looking at the agonist/antagonist relationship. Even if you maximally strengthen the lengthened position of an antagonist muscle, you will simply have a strong muscle that cannot be fully lengthened if the agonist is too weak to do so. Muscles contract - that is their strength. They do not lengthen themselves. You might think of it like this: strengthening the lengthened ROM creates potential, while strengthening the shortened ROM offers a way to express that potential. Both are useful.” My statements regarding the mind/body division, isolating the muscles, and the benefits of lengthened end range strengthening. It was implied that my understanding of those topics were flawed or nonexistent. Others have stated I was flat out wrong or clearly didn’t know what I was talking about on certain topics. So yes, I have been “shut down”. I am not trying to argue with anyone. If isometric stretching produces in me the amazing results that I think are possible, we can go from there. If I fail miserably, I’ll admit my shortcomings and proceed to use the other methods you all think is necessary in reaching my goals. Live and learn

I admitted to wasting everyone’s time. I did not approach anything the right way. I admitted my faults in this regard. I am extremely passionate and my judgment was clouded. I can go on but I think my last post will explain why I went about it the way I did. I will not continue wasting you all’s time. All I can do now is show proof or shut up. Why would anyone believe in a miracle if they can’t see it themselves? If I am indeed wrong, I will be a diligent supporter of you all for helping me see the light.

I’m under the impression flexibility and strength are more connected than people think so that is why I continued talking about them together. I’ve seen the data on isometrics being very joint specific. A common belief is that there may only be a 15 degree carryover from the contraction joint angle. I’m attempting to disprove this. If I succeed and if I want “extraordinary active flexibility”, training the short length will be unnecessary. I’ve looked at a lot of his work. I will continue to see if there is more information to draw from that will prove useful in my journey. I’ve stated many times I only have anecdotal evidence of myself. I don’t think people’s bodies are as different as people seem to believe. The word “genetics” gets thrown around a lot (no one has said it explicitly in this discussion) but I like to think there is a logical answer to most things. I believe both sides (you all and myself) have been guilty of being “absolutely convinced that we are correct.” I say one thing, (ex. lengthened end range strength benefiting the entire muscle) it’s immediately shut down. You all say one thing, and I say there’s a reason it doesn’t work. It seems you haven’t been willing to learn from me and I haven’t been willing to learn from you. Constant finger pointing has gotten most of the conversation nowhere. My anecdotal evidence I pointed out was purely flexibility specific. The ability to put my palms on ground from standing, putting my feet behind my head, being able to clasp my hands behind my back with the over/under reach, almost being able to do the splits. It gets better as I progress. If I only do isometric stretching (with no other form of stretching technique or typical weight lifting), and accomplish great feats of flexibility and strength, would that prove my case? If I’m able to do strength skills like the planche, 1 arm chin-ups, slow muscle ups, the human flag, the manna and be able to dunk a basketball; If I’m able to do flexibility skills like the splits in all directions and have high levels of active flexibility with it, by only using isometric stretching, wouldn’t that be amazing? I may be completely wrong in the benefits I think can come of doing this one method. You all would be right and I would look like a complete fool. But what if I am right? That would revolutionize so many things. I’ve been so “stuck in my ways” because I think this mind blowing. I’m extremely curious to find out.

The specific goal is increased flexibility. I said other methods work. It just so happens that isometric stretching increases strength as well. In this case, you can work flexibility and strength simultaneously instead of one at a time. Isometric stretching is not the answer to everything. It just covers a lot of bases. If someone likes to do Static, Ballistic, Dynamic, PNF, Yoga, or Myofascial releases, etc., that’s fine. I’m not telling anyone to change what they do if it works for them. I simply wanted to present (what I believe to be) a more effective, optimal, and injury preventative method. For the main goal of flexibility. I attained great results in a relatively short amount of time with nearly no negative effects. I thought it would be nice to share with others and hopefully perfect the method more. I was hoping others may have found better ways to reach the difficult muscles effectively and would be willing to share the information with me. If no one else wants to believe in Isometric Stretching as the pinnacle of greatness like I do or try it out more thoroughly, that’s ok with me. It seems to have endless potential and I’m excited to see what I can accomplish through this method. I will not try to force anyone to follow my example. I can continue to be my own test subject.

You are correct. I did not present the information correctly. I mentioned I am terrible at explaining. I am a far better student than a teacher. I apparently lack in some way or I just don’t know how to properly present information effectively. I never said other methods didn’t work. Most methods work for most, if not all, people. Even if the methods are done incorrectly. Some people prefer to do certain methods because it fits better with their lifestyle or is easier to do.The reasons why they work don’t contradict anything I said. There are many ways people can go about achieving the same goal. For example, I think static stretching is almost a complete waste of time for gaining flexibility. But many have gotten their amazing flexibility from only static stretching. I’m not denying that it works. I strongly believe some methods are just outright better than others. I tried to present a more effective, optimal, and injury preventative way to the specific task of gaining flexibility. In my first e-mail to Kit I said, “I am not trying to reinvent the wheel sort of speak. It’s more along the lines of showing you a better wheel and explaining what makes it better.” If 1000 people were given the same instructions and yet only 1 person succeeded in achieving the desired result, what does that mean? To me it feels like I’m the 1 person. Since the other 999 others failed, they are under the impression that the instructions don’t work. But how do they explain the success of the 1 person if I was given the exact same information? How could only 1 person reach the goal that so many others failed at? In this case, the instructions weren’t the problem. It was how the 999 went about following the instructions that lead to their failure. I went about things the wrong way. Like I continue to say, I’m lacking in some areas as a person. I was trying to get the 999 to admit failure or seek out information from the 1 successful person on what I did differently. Instead it seemed like the 999 were ok with trying different methods so they wouldn’t listen to me anyway. I believe the method is more difficult to perform than most other methods. I felt if no one would listen to me, explaining the intricacies of the method would be a waste of time. Ironically, I wasted more time not explaining it. Isometric Stretching is the method. It’s nothing new. Many people know of it. The goal is to get stronger in the stretched position. Time under tension (TUT) and applying force (muscle contraction) in the lengthened end range is the objective. Focusing on one muscle or muscle group at a time. Isometric stretching has similar drawbacks as PNF stretching. It is difficult to do without a partner and contracting the target muscle while remaining in a stretched position is not easy. The location and the strength of some muscles makes this even more challenging. How do you isometrically stretch your hip internal rotators, glutes, abs, or your lats (to name a few) without engaging the wrong muscles? I am currently trying to find the best positions, machines, or anything else that makes this method more practical, optimal, and safe.

My purpose was to see if I could improve on my hypothesis and find the best ways to implement it. Have an open discussion on if my thinking is flawed or possibly correct. Maybe discuss it with others that would understand the topic at hand and collaborate with an interchange of ideas. Learn new information from others as well that I haven’t figured out myself. I was not trying to sell my idea. I wasn’t trying to bash the ST System or convince you all to overhaul it. I e-mailed Kit directly at first because I didn’t want it to seem I was going to go to the forums to convert people away. He directed me to the forums. It’s my word vs everyone else’s word. I have no credibility so it would make sense no one would outright believe what I say. Some think I’m trying to teach an already understood method while others think the method doesn’t work like I think it does. I think people mainly do the method incorrectly so of course most people would get suboptimal, or even negative, results. But what’s the explanation for my results? If it didn’t work for anyone else, why does it work on me? Am I actually doing something right or am I just an exception to the rule? I thought if I explained my case more thoroughly, it would at least get people to listen. That didn’t work. Words aren’t that powerful from an unknown source. I thought if I could show pictures or videos of myself displaying high levels of flexibility and strength combined, It might have a greater effect. I’m not sure that would even convince anyone. Just like building strength through powerlifting, it takes time. I can only improve so fast. The levels I’m at are great, but not impressive enough to me because of the short time of applying the method. Maybe in a couple more months the results will be worth showing. I apologize if I wasted anyone’s time and I hope the best for everyone on their quest for growing and learning