michaelsamsel

Considering massage as a uniformly delivered product shows what usually happens, not what could happen (excellence) If one subscribes to an energy model, the hypothesis might be entertained that some massage uses one energy system (or person) to help move energy in another system (person). But if this happens, it probably happens less than people think it is. Most of the participants in this board are interested in excellence (what doesn't usually happen)

That's a tall order but I'll try a few sentences. My website on this topic is linked at the bottom. Reich's vegetotherapy took place with the patient laying down, and he used over-breathing, direct pressure, and his own personality to bring about release of suppressed affect. He didn't (nor did Lowen) worry much about integration of affect, the idea is that natural drives are naturally gracious. Reich largely gave this up in the 40's and 50's to concentrate on cancer, orgone accumulators, weather, cosmology etc Lowen stayed with the psychotherapy context. He got the patient up on his or her feet, sought to improve grounding, breathing, and vibration to improve the amount and circulation of energy (He was shier about using the term orgone, (but not the concept) He concentrated on releasing the stabilizing muscles around the joints with stretches, stress positions, and expressive movements.. Lowen used expressive exercises (hitting a bed with a racket, kicking, yelling, etc) to cultivate emotional expression but there was and is always a huge misunderstanding that he encouraged catharsis. He did not, the expressed emotion is meant to be ego-syntonic and ultimately transferable to real life. not a hysterical event that become addicting but doesn't transfer. Lowen minimized working via the transference (that had been Reich's stock and trade) And quite importantly, Lowen systematized character analysis with his five part typology. Character analysis doesn't change the body, but it sends the participant back to bodywork when he or she prematurely thinks he or she is done because it shows that new goals often are just more of the original problem. I have come to prefer stronger, more focused exercises than Lowen's like ST, chi gung (the Taoist energy health and healing model is completely similar), Pilates, Bercelli's TRE etc but Lowen is unique with character analysis, including the need to surrender. He insisted on the need to change the body but wrote that the resistance to change is ultimately in the character. http://www.reichandlowentherapy.org/

Kit's answer covers well the dynamic model of character armor. And as Kit writes, stretch therapy is much more than a release. However, if you want to know how to work with armor in a therapeutic relationship (or with your self), the work of Alexander Lowen is much more practical.

Reich was under more the Malinowski spell--matriarchal sexually free state to start with, then with agriculture came control of livestock breeding, and patriarchy, and control of sex and all that. Of course aggression is a primary drive, violence (not the same as aggression) is a secondary drive. And Reich wasn't having any when it came to thanatos, he thought there were other reasons psychoanalysis frequently had small effects, like not working the armor in the body. Stretch therapy works on the muscular armor and frees the _natural_ aggression that may have been perverted by the armor into coercion and control. Change all the individuals and the civilization will change. Hopeless to change the civilization from top down because armored individuals will run even more amok. Of course that seems a losing battle.as we read how much effort and consistency is needed for all of us on this board to achieve even modest advances in mobility (well worth it of course)

But Reich maintained that violence was the result of repression ('secondary drives') not the reason for it.

So true! That is why the Pilates tradition blocks effort and struggle (Likewise, Alexander Lowen writes about "the neurotic attitude of trying.") Yet so many people make effort their target.

I am a late bloomer, starting mobility work at 55 and changing my body considerably in 3 or 4 years (with Pilates as well) Random control trials might at times capture what usually happens, but they do a poor job studying excellence, that is what can happen but usually doesn't because of human factors. I think members of this forum are attempting excellence and some of us achieving it. You can't think and talk your way into flexibility, you have to work your body consistently. Of course you have to work at the 'edge' but the consistency criteria will take care of that since if you don't work your 'edge' you will get bored and quit when the novelty wears off (what usually happens). As for strength and flexibility, if you develop an excellent amount of both you can feel how they are related Check out on instagram kineticX/endrangestrength.

There was a long pinned thread started by Olivia basically addressing this point but I can't seem to add to it anymore. I just wanted to share this link https://www.energyarts.com/blog/bruceenergyartscom/taoist-yoga-man-suitcase Most people seem to experience considerable relaxation with increasing muscle length but I guess the two things can be separated

Rumination is like an addiction, always available, always easier. Maybe each thought distorted or not gives a drop of dopamine...Maybe the 'bootcamp' format of cross-fit is an attempt to provide a treatment for 'being in your head all the time' I tell my clients that stretch is a direct effective treatment for rumination.

Freud's talking cure seemed to work strongly and quickly in the early days, then seemed to become less powerful and much longer as the years went on, even as the analysts were becoming more sophisticated. Lowen hypothesized that at first, Freud talking to patients about sex etc was such a shock that it actually was an autonomic nervous system intervention (like a reset) and that the shock changed the holding in the body. As patients became more sophisticated and knew what topics would be discussed, it faded back into a conversation. A zen enlightenment must work like a shock, one imagines. My experience has been that if I can get a client to actually work the body, (and it is a really hard sell, even among those that come looking for 'somatic therapy' ) they progress so much more. Maybe I'm not much good at the talking part. Hence speaking from my experience may be only speaking from my experience. But I'm not trying to be dogmatic. Point taken that there are examples of successful 'top-down' work as well as successful 'bottom-up' work

I am a bio-energetic therapist and an avid amateur practitioner of ST, which I recommend to 98% of my clients. Alexander Lowen's message is: change your body, change your life (changing your mind is implied in changing your life). It doesn't hardly work the other way. Trying to change your mind or life will not change your body (and so you really aren't changing your mind or your life by trying to change your mind or your life, if you aren't working directly with your body) Alexander Lowen wrote 13 book all still in print if you are really interested in body based therapy. My website is www.reichandlowentherapy.org

I myself can't understand my 2016 post in this thread. As for my recent post, I was basically saying I myself can't understand my 2016 post. In the summer of 2016 I was undergoing some neuro-feedback work with an optometrist that was aimed at the ciliary muscle but also affected my subjective sense of relaxation--but that is another story. At that time I must have felt I had some insight relevant to this thread but perhaps not.

My response was a year ago so I don't recall so clearly what prompted it. I (or the optometrist) was getting some brainwave reading with the neuro-feedback, but not with my stretching routine. I did mean to use the word simplistic as in 'overly simple' as a pre-emptive way of fending off criticism if I was talking through my hat which clearly I was! I think I did want to convey that I felt at times I went through a beneficial (for integrating the stretch) qualitative change as opposed to a quantitative change in relaxation level. Your point is well taken that one shouldn't use terms like alpha or beta impressionistically

Jim, by 'inappropriate' do you mean it is inadvisable in a business sense, or are you referencing a moral standard Mike

I'm going by how I look and feel and how others look and feel after Pilates. Emphasis on harmony and grace. All subjective. But go watch a advanced Pilates practitioner walk across, the room. More attractive than an Olympic gymnast IMHO I'm over my head with explaining any thing in a kinesiological way but professional dancers have extended careers decades overcoming injury. Also there is no prohibition about doing any thing else, most of us live in free countries

For harmonizing, I don't think Pilates can be beat. Not solo or cheap way to go, but changing maladaptive motor recruitment will change your body and life. And it is famous for decreasing injury tendencies

Although this is probably too simplistic, the relaxation response is fullest (or only complete) if the brain wave state is predominantly alpha. I believe just stretching for a few hours puts me in alpha. However,I follow a rote routine that I tweak infrequently. If one was doing flexibility work in a problem solving/ competitive state of mind, it might keep the brain waves more beta? Could be why yoga nidra or vipassana seem to supply the difference, they train alpha? I have been getting some neuro-feedback training tied to eye lens accommodation. Puts me in alpha much more directly than stretching. I haven't tested if it alone changes flexibility. I wonder if the 'atmospherics' of most yoga classes (whether authentic or not) are meant to work together with the asanas to put one in alpha?

I am no expert, just a civilian, but I believe that, where there is a marked imbalance in any agonist-antagonist group, its almost impossible to strengthen the weaker set of muscles until the tightness in the other set is addressed, because reciprocal inhibition just shuts down the weaker set of muscles (largely the reason they are so weak) It took me years of stretching my hip flexors before I could start contracting my glutes when cued to do so in Pilates, You (OP) state the pain has improved from sharp to stiffness, that sounds like the stretching regimen is working, no? You sound like a doer with strong will, not always the best 'state' for body change

I think the Reddit OP demonstrates the oft-experienced confusion between the intense and the profound--they are not the same. Clearly her experiences are intense. The question is are they profound? I do not think it is as obvious as she presents it. However, her acid trips were a disrupter for her usual thought patterns. That is one role for psychedelics in small amounts, a person may become less dogmatic. But with chronic use, the mind or the person starts to adapt and it becomes escapes and rigidity becomes even greater. But is any one having a Vippasana practice where they have sensory experiences like the Reddit poster? That would be quite a practice! Maybe that's a barrier for some if they expect such fireworks. Meditation is meant to disrupt some states and strengthen others (loosely called mindfulness) Alexander Lowen did criticize extensive meditation as a way of 'retreating' inside away from the world. But he decried as well the manic pace of life we have now, which is is even more manic than when he wrote in the 70's and 80's. Most of us use meditation for balance. Has any meditator this community has or knows of stopped eating? The analogy between acid and meditation may not be that strong except for the shared aspect of detachment. I won't say dissociation since that is one thing meditation helps overcome.

I do a 4-5 hour, hardcore ST session once a week. I cover every joint thoroughly. Gives my 55-yo body six days to recover. I do Pilates classes 4-5 times a week and there is active stretching/limbering included in that but at a lower intesity

I'm interested in involuntary movement. That is not the same as spontaneous movement, which includes voluntary movement that is deemed to be less filtered or contaminated somehow. Obviously, with spontaneous movement there is room for a lot of self-delusion. When things are done in front of an audience (Esalen-style) there is obviously a great deal of demand characteristics, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demand_characteristics Add youtube to the mix and who know what is actually happening But with involuntary behavior such as neurogenic tremor, I am unsure how there is room for self-delusion? TRE is about voluntary steps that increase greatly the likelihood of involuntary movement. But it doesn't always happen and the inducing steps themselves aren't sacred. Bercelli has spoken about "tremor envy" A lot of people will start shaking their legs to imitate others or follow a feeling and whatever the value of this, it is not the involuntary movement that TRE is based around. While spontaneous 'expressive' movement (or certainly any prescribed sequence of movement) might increase tension as well as loosen it, I am less clear how an involuntary movement can increase tension (well there is clonus or cramp or spasm but that is usually easily distinguished). A Lowen referenced two parts of intended movement--the voluntary part and the involuntary part mostly through the autonomic nervous system, gamma neurons etc, perhaps also fascia. It is the involuntary component that brings in the pleasure and beauty. Lowen worked on rehabbing the involuntary part of functioning which to him included at times encouraging emotions as a tool to effect the neuro-muscular situation (dis-inhibiting) not as a message to be pantomimed (a common misconception throughout the world of body psychotherapy) Increasing involuntary movement sets the stage for two critical involuntary events 1) full natural breathing, and 2) satisfying orgasm. But it also sets the stage for satisfying spontaneous voluntary movement such as dance, walking, interpersonal confrontations etc.

A distinction needs to be made between volitional, short back and forth movements (the skeleton moves and a muscle acts more or less as a unit), and neuro-genic tremors which are involuntary and come from individual or small groups of motor units firing and letting go asynchronously (the skeleton basically stays in place though it may be tossed around a bit). The latter is supposed to have the effect of decreasing baseline muscle tension and/or length. Some say it releases "CNS tension related to trauma" but that seems based on a mind-runs-the-body bias Bercelli is trained in bioenergetics where Lowen re-invented neurogenic tremors through positions like the 'bow' I don't think Berrcelli (who I have met) claims to have invented anything new, but rather 1) developed a format that can be taught to large groups (80-100) in about 15 minutes and that 2) targets the psoas. In that way TRE is valuable for large populations that have been traumatized. Once a person has more lengthened relaxed muscles (for instance psoas) at baseline, tremors will be less likely to occur but the same also with really tight muscles that don't let go easily. There is nothing magical about Bercelli's sequence, it is just based on stretch and exhaustion, and so of course tremoring could happen in the final position if one put oneself there after an ST session. Bercelli's sequence is meant to be efficient and easily teachable and non-threatening (and to be conducted in a safe setting with empathetic others) because of the possible release of emotion (which in the bioenergetic tradition is believed to aid (or actually be a unity with) muscular release

Mitch I think I am/have been in a very similar situation. I have been doing Pilates for five years (about two privates a week) It has changed my body and therefore changed my life ("changed my 'self'") I have been doing ST about 2 and a half years (one 4 hour session 3-4 times a month) It too has changed my life and enhanced my Pilates To oversimplify, ST is about freedom of movement. Pilates is about quality of movement. Freedom of movement is necessary to enhance and change the quality of movement so Pilates calls for flexibility. I found that Pilates itself was not increasing my flexibility as directly as I thought it could happen. That is when I researched and found ST. I think the complementary-ness between ST and Pilates is obvious. However, Pilates works by changing motor recruitment. That is, it changes what nerves receive how many of what type of impulse and when. An average over-stressed human who thinks "I'll walk over there and pick up that chair" has a different motor recruitment that someone who has had a lot of Pilates. This is unconscious. This also underlies grace and beauty (and I dare say pleasure) in movement. ST probably will change motor recruitment some because of the balancing between agonist and antagonists, but no where near the way that real studio ('Romana') Pilates will do. Of course there is the cost! Perhaps that is what you are thinking about? There is no finish line in Pilates--you can always stop but if you do it the rest of your life you will not be finished. Therefore, if you can afford i see no reason not to do Pilates concurrent with ST. The ego has to let go in Pilates because it is always about what you cannot do--you are paying someone to correct you constantly for an hour! ST is free (nearly) and has a less elusive target and can be done alone

Sorry for the imprecision in language, perhaps an American habit I think keeping the lower ribs down in Pilates has to do 1) with not extending the spine at that point to leverage those ribs up and forward, and 2) retraining the muscles to to expand those ribs to the back and sides as well. I have lower ribs that were 'permanently' flared due to a tight diaphragm and paradoxical breathing, (and a habit of extending my back right there) so this goal has been very difficult for me, but beneficial for my breathing

Thank you Kit and Tones As for the ingenious exercise you describe Tones, when I wing my elbows out, my thumbs roll up with pinkies stay down. I appreciate Kit's point that there is a hard stop caused by the bones and this is different in males, However I don't think I am at that point because when I grasp one wrist with my other hand and rotate the elbow, I can go farther. It is only when I try the positioning in midair using only the muscles of the arm being positioned, that I cannot go to my maximum As I understand the captions in some of those images you recommend Kit, It seems that I cannot fully supinate my hands (make parallel the radius and ulna) unless I use external force. So it is perhaps a strength and control issue at bottom, but exacerbated by short/tight muscle somewhere that wants to keep my hands pronated (radius and unla crossed) I have thought a bit about the subtext developing in this thread that the positioning I am seeking could be trivial/cosmetic/feminine/unnatural etc. Well that might be the case. On the other hand, every other bit of alignment coaching I have had from Pilates has yielding greater pleasure in movement and more energy. Makes me think of the phrase 'opening the energy gates of the body' It is true there is an aesthetic benefit and some seek only that. Lowen was insistent that a truly graceful looking body, especially in spontaneous movement, indicated emotional health and well-being. Looking effortless, which Kit points out is so valued in dance, should only really be achieved by actually being effortless. In professional dance, pressure and ego may lead to trying to force that last bit of appearing effortless, and perhaps fool a less discerning observer, and lead to injuries. Dancers are very motivated toward Pilates to rehab and prevent injuries because it seems to provide _real_ effortlessness. I am not after the _mere_ look of effortlessness but the feeling and functional benefits of effortlessness. Of course there is a paradox in 'trying' to achieve effortlessness but that is a paradox in all corrective exercise