Jim Pickles

Very sorry to hear that. Best wishes for it, Jim.

Not a trditional pancke! Indeed - I agree! "But anyone can get there if they're prepared to put the time and effort in" - at this rate of progress, I shall probably be dead before I achieve a perfect straight line. But at least my leg flexibility isnt getting worse (and may be improving very slowly), so I'm having fun with that; unlike my spinal flexibility which is deteriorating as my vertebral discs compress with age (I am losing height at the standard rate with age). Very sorry to see about your boat by the way; that must be very distressing. All my condolences. I'm glad you are OK though. Maybe you will tell us more one day.

Thaks for that @Kit_L. However, first please can I suggest that you move the later bits of this thread to a new thread? I feel bad that I have hijacked the thread, which is now veering into a separate topic, and I dont want to discourage the original poster from continuing her own very interesting postings of her journey. Thanks. A few things about doing a full straddle. Pic 1 is a diagram of someone attempting to do a knees-forward straddle with the torso horizontal to the floor, but is not quite there yet (as I'm not - at very best, my pelvis is 3-4 cm away - as I know from my straddle machine). The oval is the pelvis seen from behind, and the two lines are the legs. If this person is determined to touch down, and relaxes ito it, the knees will be bent sideways. This is what I think is happening to me sometimes - I sometimes feel the stretch rather higher in the side of the knees than the attachments of the gracilis and semitendinosus. Actually, I'm not attempting to do a full knees-forward straddle, but the knees are rotated partially up, so there will still be a sideways component. Not good. I allow the feet to come slightly forward to partially accommodate. The real solution is to hold tension in the muscles and not come down until I'm ready (which will take forever at my current rate of progress). As for the way into the pancake, I attach a photo which shows a mix of the two ways you suggest (it was taken in the same session, a couple of stretches after the previous photo). The feet have come further away from the wall (there is less weight on them, which has allowed them to move), and are rotated forward a bit, but not completely, as are the knees. Also, the diagram got me thinking about the exact geometry. The distance of the centre of rotation of the ball joint of the femur from the front of the pelvis and the base of the sitting bones, the length of the head of the femur, the angle that the femur makes with the lower leg all affect what will be pressing on the floor in a perfect straddle. I tried looking at anatomical diagrams, but I've no idea if they are drawn accurately enough, and there will also be individual variation. So I gave up. But its an interesting point to consider. Anyway, the take-home message for me, is to concentrate more on going into it from standing, as you suggest. It the moment, I lean forward to take a controllable amount of weight on my hands. And thanks for your compliment on the position - it is all thanks to your teaching! Jim.

Thats OK - I saw the reply, and didnt get round to replying till now. I can still mostly remember what you said. I will follow what you say as much as I can. I dont have an apprehension reflex going down, because I've been doing it for decades and never had a muscle contract excessively and protectively while doing it, so my body knows it is safe. When I go down by the way, I have by butt against a wall so it doesnt go backwards, and a rubber mat in front of my feel, to discorage them from going forwards - but it does allow them to go forward a bit. From what you say, I could be doing much more strengthening on the way down, rather than just trying to get down as easily as possible. Having said that (and maybe I'm being greedy in what I am attempting) if it's a good session I'm flat on the floor, and my feet are only slightly forward of my hips. However there is still a strong sideways force on the inner side of the knees (which are touching the floor). This is because my thighs wont so easily go in a dead straight line with my rotated pelvis, so my knees are taking some of my weight and forcing my thighs apart. Photo from a few days ago attached. But if you could summarise a few salient points that you think I've missed, I'd appreciate it, as there's nothing like reading the real thing. Many thanks, Jim.

Moderator Edit: Thread split from Procrastination, Consistency & Motivation. See original thread for earlier discussion referenced below. @Kit_L Kit - can i take you upon your comment "If you develop strength at end ROM, I think the risk to the ligaments @Jim Pickles talks about is minimal" If you are going to stretch, you have to let the muscles relax (unless the force is so strong that the muscles are forced to undergo an eccentric contraction - but I cant think that would be possible in this case). So when I do a straddle, going down from above, I support my weight with my leg muscles and lean forward to take some weight on my hands and keep balance, but at the last moment, in order to touch down, I have to relax the muscles. Hence the danger to the inner ligaments of the knee. How can this be avoided? Sorry to hijack this thread. Thanks, Jim.

"front, side split and pancake, as well as improve my back flexibility" I presume you have seen the videos that Kit has, many now available for free (there are lots on Youtube). I thought the Mastery seires was now available for free but I see that it is still paid-for - but this has the best series of graded exercises for your goals (and for other goals too). You really need to do a wide range of exercises, not just the ones that are most directly targeting what is needed for your goals. This is because there are lots of other little structures (muscles, fascia, ligaments, etc) involved in every movement and you need to explore those to get optimal flexibility for your main goals. It is also more motivating to try lots of different exercises. For those goals, you should certainly give prominence to (among all the other exercises and the variants) hamstring stretches, hip flexor stretches, quad stretches, tailor pose, pancake (preparation), spinal rotation (loosens up the spine), passive backbending over support, cobra, wheel. As you are doing. For me, I started stretching in my 40s from a very tight start. Now front splits are routine without a warm-up, I've never QUITE achieved a straight-line straddle (a few cm out on a good day), backbends have always been good, pancake now OK. Front splits, straddle and pancake took about 10 years. Just letting you know. I'm coming up to 80 and do all those stretches (and final positions) every couple of days. While nothing can beat Kit and Oliva's Mastery Series, you can also see for free parts of the routines I use in my own teaching for legs - go to my webpage www.jimpflex.com.au, go to Class Videos (https://www.jimpflex.com.au/classvideos.html) and look for Legs 1 and Legs 2. These are follow-along videos which will give you my routines for front splits preparation, straddle preparation, and pancake preparation. They are intended for students with the degree of flexibility of those in my own class, so mostly the videos dont show final completed final poses (splits etc). However they can be easily extended. Most of the exercises are taken from the ST program. Jim.

Stretching (i.e. physically changing the anatomy of your body when it is no longer growing) is a very slow process in an adult*. We are not talking about weeks, or months, but years, and even decades. So you have to enjoy the PROCESS, and not just be focussed on final results. Having said that, interim stages of progress are to be welcomed, and used as a sign of great endorsement of what you are doing. So I see your thoracic flexibility has improved enormously. A very good sign. Another comment - I wonder why you are balancing on your heel in the high lunge. You could try it with your foot flat on the floor. This means that you will be able to focus the muscle activity and the relaxation and stretch exactly where it is needed, so as to stretch the front of the hip of the leg going back, without distractions. Jim. *Though there are a few exceptions.

Yes you need a prop. But you will also probably find that as your flexibility develops, a prop at one point in your life wont be suitable at another. I suggest improvising: eg sit sideways on a sofa (which has firm but padded arms) and lean back and over. If it is near enough to a wall, you can use your arms to pull yourself lower and stretch the front of your torso (or have a partner hold your elbows and pull you back and down). Or lie backwards on a box or edge with the edge just below the tips of your shoulder blades, and lie back. I suggest improvising and experimenting with everything that is around, rather than buying a yoga prop) that might suit you at some point but will quickly go beyond. That wheel you illustrated isnt giving you much ability to adjust where in the spine the bending is taking place. Your own improvisations will allow that.

@Matt Chung: as far as hamstring and glute exercises are concerned, there are a lot in the ST program, and lots you can find on Youtube. As for spine, one is the arch body hold - if you go into it in stages as described in Kit and Olivia's videos then you will get more detailed activation of different groups of back muscles - but still the big ones. As for the others, which I presume is the point of your question, I discovered these when exploring my spinal flexibility - which once was a lot better than it is now. In an exercise like standing upright, arms overhead, slowly going into a deep backbend (maybe hands hovering just above the ground, or touching the ground) and then slowly coming back up again, if you take care and concentrate, you can feel the different groups of muscles coming in to support you in the different phases of that movement. I dont have this flexibility now, but can still selectively activate the different groups of muscles. Also, if you can do it, try a forearm stand with a deep backbend, and go into it slowly and come out slowly, with full awareness, and you will feel the different muscles.

May I add, one thing that is common in our culture is called "anterior dominance" - that is, too much activation of the muscles on the front of the body (tightness, etc, due to overuse, emotional tension and poor posture) and not enough activation of the muscles on the back of the body. The correction is to rebalance it - increase the exercises that use the muscles on the back of the body (glutes, hamstrings, back muscles - including the small stabiliser muscles of the spine, etc). I hope you agree Kit. Please let me know if you dont. I was put on to this when two of my students had reported pulled hamstrings from doing very simple things, and got me reading up why it might have happened. After that, my classes always included exercises for activating the posterior muscular chains of the body. Jim.

@SiW - re distribution of weight - I cant say. The centre of gravity of the body is around the pelvis, so most of the weight will be on the parts of the body nearest the pelvis, which I presume are the feet. On the other hand, you will feel the arms and shoulders working hard at stage 2->3, because they are the weakest link. Yes, at that stage you should be focussing on the arms and shoulders. One thing I suggest, is resting on the head after the initial lift with the arms, which will give you enough energy to lift with the arms to the next stage.

@Kit_L Actually, for me, I find that makes it more difficult. And the diagram explains why - the shoulders have to go further to raise the body above the dotted line if the feet are higher. On the other hand, I find it much easier if the upper body is raised (e.g. if it is done on sloping ground with the head higher than the feet). I presume then that it needs less strength in the shoulders. Maybe which is easier, depends on one's personal pattern of strength - you (and probably many of your students) are likely to be much stronger in the upper body than I am. About the "in-moving" - I guess you mean the feet closer in under the body. I get them as close to the hips as they will go, anyway. Do you have a picture of your best starting position?

People often find it difficult to get going on this, unless they already have quite a lot of flexibility and strength. When I try to teach it to my students, I have been finding it difficult to explain exactly what to do, except there is a rapid 1-2-3 of lifting hips, lifting shoulders, and pushing up. But a bit more thought and looking at videos suggests the solution. We know we are are very strong when straightening our arms and legs (straightening the knees and elbows). We are much less strong when pushing the arms and legs behind the body, at least when doing it by more than a small amount. For my explanation, see the attached diagram. The starting position (1) is with knees and elbows bent up. I hope you can understand my crudely-drawn stick figure. The knees are supported a (fairly) fixed distance from the floor by the lower leg, and the hands are supported by the floor. The dotted line connects these two points of support. 2. The next stage is to lift the hips. This is fairly easy. They may go just above the dotted line. 3. The next stage is to lift the shoulders by using the arms. This is much more difficult, because we are weak doing this. BUT to go to the next stage, the shoulders and hips must be lifted to above the dotted line. This is the stage at which people often get stuck through lack of strength and flexibility. 4. When the body is bowed above the dotted line, which connects the two points of support, then it can relatively easily be bowed up further by straightening the arms and legs (a strong action). I suggest it is best to push with the arms first, because the legs are much stronger than the arms, and if the legs are pushed first, the arms will collapse. 5. Now the body is strongly bowed upwards, and a the backbend can be further increased by straightening both arms and legs, which is relatively easy. Jim.

In relation to straddle splits - "How do you pick which type to train for?" I go for the one that feels best for me - which for me means feet flat on the floor for support, feet pointing outwards as much as possible, knees rotated forward but upwards as much as possible (i.e. about 45 degrees upwards), and pelvis tilted forward a bit. It is said to vary between individuals, but I get the impression that a turnout rotation of 45 degrees (of the thigh bone on the pelvis) or so is enough to release the mobility of the hip bones (stopping the greater trochanter hitting the socket of the hip joint). Another factor is minimising the sideways force on the knees, as any stretching of the ligaments at the side of the knee can destabilise the knee joint - one of the most vulnerable joints in the body. The more the knees point up, the less the sideways force on the knees will be. But I think in the end, it depends on your own pattern of flexibility and strength.

In relation to the lunge, as a preparation for the front splits, I strongly suggest that you clench up the glutes as much as possible (feel with your fingers, to check that all the muscles around the back of the buttock - inner as well as outer sides - are clenched as tightly as possible). This will help relax and open up the front of the hip. And hold it for a long time - at least 2 minutes, and then build up to longer. This will not only open up your front hip, but will strengthen and tone your glutes, a commonly underused muscle. I was taught this exercise by a practicing contortionist, and it transformed me - it changed my forward splits from something that I could only do occasionally and with a long warm up, to something that I could do as often as I liked, and with only a very very minimal preparation. I can now go into them cold if I want, but dont usually. It also helps if you raise your arms overhead and lean away from the hip you are stretching, as this will give an extra stretch to the psoas component (which runs from the front of the thigh bone onto the spine). Jim.

Can I add my views on partner stretching? I’ve been using and teaching the ST system for a couple of decades now. In some places I find partner stretching useful, in others not. As Kit says, “because all of our modern partner exercises, without exception, the stretchee (person being stretched) 100% controls of the depth of the stretch.” Yes, entirely, but it is not always possible to be confident that this happens. One reason for using partner stretching, is that it is fun. It makes social contact, and also allows the person applying the stretch (the stretcher) to feel through tactile feedback what is going on in the stretchee’s body – and this is very educational, because the stretchee (the person being stretched) may be getting so many sensations at once, that they find it difficult to sort out exactly what is going on. The excercises that I find NOT useful for partner stretches can I think be summarised as being the simple stretch of a single muscle or associated group of muscles. For instance, hamstring stretches. The stretchee on their own can apply as much force as needed (and indeed, easily too much) in these stretches. I find partner stretching counterproductive in these types of stretches. One issue is that the stretchee may worry about too much force being applied, no matter how good the partner feedback is. The exercises where I find partner stretching USEFUL, seem to be those that involve complex joints, many muscles, and probably have a large fascia component. A great example is the hip flexor stretch – a complex joint, many muscles, a large fascia component. Also backbends (ALWAYS supported, so stop the spine crunching). This stretches the whole of the front of the body in a way that you cannot do on your own. And many more. When we do these types of stretches in class, the members always enjoy them. Jim.

Ideally yes, but there may be medical reasons why that is not possible.

A recent news report alerted me to this issue. I am a firm believer in the value of supplemental magnesium as an anti-inflammatory - combined with the fact that it is difficult to overdose on (except for a few people with a genetic difference) because the extra is not absorbed and is just excreted. However, magnesium supplements often contain vitamin B6, which apparently enhances magnesium absorption and effects. The trouble is, that too much B6 can cause nerve damage (peripheral neuropathy) - and the B6 levels needed are not that high - maybe 50-150 mg/day. My magnesium supplements contain 60 mg/tablet of vitamin B6, so with 2-3 tablets/day one could be in danger. The recommended intake of B6 is 1.5- 2 mg/day, and the diet of most of us has sufficient anyway. The European Food Safety Authority set an upper limit of 12 mg/day for adults. So why do they do this to us? Why dont they let us decide for ourselves what we eat, instead of including ingredients that they only show in the very small print? So magnesium (in the supplements that we buy) isnt so safe after all. Jim. See https://www.tga.gov.au/news/safety-alerts/health-supplements-containing-vitamin-b6-can-cause-peripheral-neuropathy

Not at all. It gives me the chance to correct a common misconception.

Psychosomatic? Definitely not. Fibromyalgia is not properly understood, but there are changes in biochemical signalling in the brain - for instance, continuing inflammatory signals from the microglia (support cells) in the brain, and many other changes. It may result - in some cases at least - from a past virus infection such as Epstein-Barr virus (which gives mononucleosis/glandular fever) that remains in the body, and for unknown reasons is not cleared by the immune system, and keeps flaring up.

That clarifies it. As for the emotional and related issues, I cant comment, as I've never eexperienced anything like that myself. It is often said that backbending will evoke feelings like you say you have had, but I've never had that myself so cant comment from my experience. I can only suggest that you may be carrying a lot of tension in your body that you do not know about, in which case of course what you are doing with ST and I presume yoga is that ideal approach. This may come from a genetic difference in for instance your fascia - one of my students has a very tight body which I suggest is fascia-related, even though he has spent decades trying to counter it. Apparently all his family are like that - they are tighter than he is, but through continued ST he has stopped his own body getting tighter over time. One nerve that might be heavily involved is the vagus, since this runs in the area. However it is parasympathetic, so if your movements stimulated it, we might expect a damping down of stress rather than an increase. The diaphragm itself is innervated by the phrenic nerve, which has a sympathetic component, so maybe this has received some unusual stimulation. In which case I guess you have to repeat the exercise until the CNS becomes used to it (maybe). Jim.

Just to be certain what you were doing: "The exercise was to inhale with resistance by biting over a ball and then readjusting to completely block the air track afterwards. Now one needs to push with the diaphragm with 100% force," A muscle cant push, and can only pull, so please explain what you mean by "pushing with the diaphragm". Thanks, Jim.

The serratus inferior posterior – a muscle that is commonly neglected. For instance, it doesnt get a mention in Stretching and Flexibility. The muscle runs diagonally downwards from the lower ribs to join the T11, T12, L1 and L2 vertebrae (see fig). Its function is described as “drawing the lower ribs backward and downward to assist in rotation and extension of the trunk”. Drawing the lower ribs downwards is the function most often mentioned, and this is commonly used to suggest a role in forced expiration. I’ve had a bit of an interest in this muscle for a long time. It started in the days when I stood up from backbending. I found it I was part way up, if I contracted a muscle in this area, it made standing up from a backbend much easier – it was as though someone had placed a hand in the area to help me up. It was the only muscle that I could identify as a candidate in this area, but is was a bit of a puzzle, because we would expect it to ENCOURAGE back bending (by pulling the ribs back and down) rather than helping to get out of one. However every muscle has two ends, and it we view the upper (rib) ends as fixed (by the tensions in the rib cage) then the action would be to lift the T11-L2 region, maybe transferring the bend from lower in the lumbar region up towards the T-L junction, where different musculature could then help lift the torso further. Not sure if this explanation holds water but maybe someone has better ideas. I was more recently reminded of this muscle when doing a sphinx. It came in strongly and powerfully assisted in bringing the torso more vertical. I am maybe feeling it more now because it is also strongly activated when going into the arch body hold (arms up), in the way demonstrated in Olivia’s Vimeo video by going through intermediate stages first, with arms down, then out to sides. So I’ll emphasise use of this muscle routinely now when doing sphinxes with my students (which we do every week), as its so powerful in its effect. As I would encourage everyone else to do, if you're not aware of using already. Not sure if anyone will read of all this, but if anyone else has any use for this muscle, I’d appreciate hearing it. Jim.

As well as everything else, I strongly suggest you do the downward dog, and at first dont attempt to put your heels to the floor. Then alternately lower the heels to the floor in time with the outbreaths. This will help stretch the whole posterior fascial chain, which is one of the major limitations of forward bending at the hips. It can give relatively rapid improvement in the forward fold, and you may be amazed by the results. And as Kit said, it is important to stay relaxed, and this is difficult if your hamstrings are holding your body weight up in a forward fold. So the other exercises listed here give a stretch while allowing the body weight to be taken off the hamstrings. The downward dog exercise uses body weight to stretch, but the fascia arent muscles, so you dont need to relax it in the same way (though you shoud of course relax the hamstrings and calf muscles as much as possible). Jim.

"both inspiring and intimidating, surrounding by many people who've been practicing long before they could even speak." To learn classical ballet, you have to be able to put up with humiliation. Because if the teacher is good, you will be getting lots of corrections (in front of the whole class, of course). You only know when you've got something right, when they start correcting you on something else. Of course one tries to hide in the crowd. That falls to pieces rather when in the big travelling moves they say "why dont we do it from the corner in twos?" (I know why not!). Then you have to do it in front of everyone else, with everyone looking on. The trick I learned, is to go early, and pair yourself with a good one. Then you hope the class will all be looking at the good one (to learn if possible), not at you. The tendency is to go as late as possible, then you will have two useless ones going together (and nobody to model yourself on if its a complicated sequence). Even worse, if they run out of pairs, you may have to do it on your OWN. No escaping everyones' eyes then. But you do get to hang out with lots of gorgeous young women with perfect bodies in figure-hugging clothing. And they're NICE to you as well! (out of pity, probably).