Jim Pickles

Many thanks indeed for your response and your insights. I'll use them to investigate and experiment further, and increase the range of exercises as my confidence in the recovery improves. Any maybe hold back a bit on the maximal slow eccentric contractions, intended to give micro-trauma to the muscles - it look like they succeeded. Best wishes, Jim.

Dear Kit - many thanks for your reply. The side that has current problems is not the one with the old ankle injury. The current problems are with the right leg. The old injury is with the left. Here is a picture of the stretch that I finds relieves the tight external rotators on the right. I am lying (mostly) on my back, and the lifted leg is internally rotated as much as possible. When I first did this, I immediately felt a blessed relief in the quads of that side when I got up. Interesting point you made that if the knot can be relieved by rolling or pressure point therapy, its not an injury. The knot was relieved by this. It reappeared a couple of times after I had seen the physio, and I found that the best thing was a fairly light kneading/circular massage, which then dispersed it. I now wonder if the tightness and soreness that I continued to feel in the quads after the initial physio session (and which was even getting worse over time) was because I was tensing up the quads to protect the leg, especially when walking down stairs. So the whole issue has become a lot better since I have been doing the stretch as in the photo (rather than the usual ST piriformis stretches which I also tried). If I was feeling like I do now when I posted I wouldn't have made a post. So I wonder if the whole thing in fact has been driven the the stress in the external rotators, which I was not aware of until the physio pointed it out, Your post reminded me of the relation you have described before between external rotator activation and pronation. However the right leg with the external rotator issues is the one with less pronation - but I wear very substantial orthotics on the worse pronating (left) side, while the right foot pronates quite a bit anyway, so maybe the normal cause-and-effect has complicating factors. In addition, I spend a lot of time in bare feet around the house (but doing nothing strenuous) and performance/dance classes are in bare feet, so the situation becomes still more mixed. Still, the sentence I highlighted in bold above is an issue that I will very much bear in mind. As for strength difference between my legs and the left post-tibialis rupture: the left foot pronates very badly but orthotics correct the resulting height difference and normal activities are not really a problem if I am careful. If I do leg presses separately the left leg is 10 or more kg weaker than the right, but there is a likely effect of me not making full effort because the foot is unstable when I'm wearing trainers. Many thanks indeed, Your input is much appreciated because it has given me a whole new perspective on the problem. All the best, Jim.

@Kit_L As you may remember, for some time now I've been doing very slow eccentric weights for strength. However my quads on one side have been tight for a few months now. I went to a physio who found a knot in the vastus lateralis (probably an overuse injury), massaged it, and said I should roller it, and it went away. However the quads still feel tight - all over, not just the area with the knot. She also found tightness in the hip external rotators on that side, and said I should use a small massage ball on them. Have done (but only a few times). I've now started stretching it - and noticed a great improvement in the quads. They feel OK now, but I'm being cautious as I've had a few false dawns before. So my questions are: 1. Is it usual for injury to the external rotators to lead to a (presumably compensatory reflex) tightness in the quads? 2. As for stretches, the one that feels best is not one of the standard ones described in Stretching and Flexibility and your videos, but one you described many years ago when talking about pre-exhaustion. It is lying on back both legs straight, then taking the affected leg across the body (still straight) and rotating the toes down. This gives a lovely clear stretch of the affected muscle. Is this stretch written about anywhere now, and what do you think of it as a stretch? Is there a reason why it is not in the current repertoire of ext. rotator stretches? Many thanks, and very best wishes to you and Olivia, Jim.

While most exercises in Stretch Therapy are isolated to one group of muscles as much as possible, combination stretches are sometimes useful. Here I've discovered one I've not done before - legs held apart in a straddle against the wall, while the spine is in a backbend, lying over a roller. Very intense - the straddle holds the pelvis at an angle that increases the stretch in the back. It is also an amazing feeling, to have both the hips and the chest/spine opened out powerfully and maximally at the same time. I suggest people try it. It looks like a dead insect, too. I'd have called in the Dead Cockroach, but I think that name's already taken.

I have just come across this link, on Fascia differences in Ehlers-Danlos syndrome. The syndrome encompasses multiple syndrome all related to mutations in collagen genes, or in genes related to collagen. It can affect mutiple organ systems, and there are many different types, asssociated with the different known mutations or symptoms. I have many friends with it. Because the genes are mostly related to collagen, it was thought to affect mobility by affecting collagen. However I have come across this interesting article, showing that fascia is thicker and more "sticky" in Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome. This gives an explanation for some of its further symptoms. I have still to go through the associated references in detail, but it all looks legit. Interesting reading. https://jeanniedibon.com/fascia-and-proprioception-in-eds/

@Kit_L Thanks Kit. Its clear now that to improve my forward bending, I need to do it with ankles flexed. I tried today at the gym, standing on a wedge, and saw a slight improvement from the photos in my post, but I think probably this was just because I felt more confident in the position. As for Claudia ("Claudia Contortionist" on Facebook) - unfortunately I found that video a bit creepy. I have seen many of her videos of performances in the UK and she looks very down to earth and vital, and she puts on nice shows. However in this video, I thought she looked rather creepily skinny - was it altered by AI? You cant trust anything in videos nowadays, but I suspect that its genuine - why would she need to fake things, as she is so flexible already? We'll see. 'not in this lifetime' - nor in the next, I guess.

However, some people have a very good forward bend, in spite of flexed ankles (Claudia, from the UK): Claudia downward dog.mp4

We know that there are no muscles running from the Achilles tendon over the hips to the pelvis, so as far as muscles alone are concerned, the angle of the ankle should not affect the forward bend. However we also know that there are structures that run all the way, from the soles of the feet, up the back of the legs, over the pelvis, and to the back - and higher. Notable are the sciatic nerve, and the fascia. I was experimenting how much ankle flexion affects a forward bend at the waist, under various conditions: 1. Sitting forward bend allowing the feet to flop forward as much as they wanted. 2. Sitting forward bend holding the feet nearly vertical. 3. Standing forward bend (feet horizontal on floor). 4. Standing forward bend with feet on wedge (flexed up by 25 degrees). 5. Downward dog (feet flexed by 35 degrees with respect to the legs). It turns out that allowing the feet to flop forward (by 60 degrees), holding them nearly vertical (extending forward by 10 degrees) and standing (extending forward by 10 degrees, because the legs werent quite vertical) produced almost exactly the same forward bend (lower spine flexed 35-42 degrees beyond a right angle with respect to the legs). However flexing the feet up (by 25 degrees) on the wedge, or 35 degrees up (in the downward dog, measured with respect to the legs) gave a marked reduction in the forward bend at the waist, with 5 and 8 degrees less than a right angle at the waist in the two cases. So ankle flexion does make a difference at the hips, if the feet are flexed. There is no difference if they are extended (in me, now - but not several years ago). This pattern probably reflects the pattern of fascia adaptation to the stretches that I have been doing over the years. I did not feel any nerve sensations, so I suspect it was all fascia. So that it is possible to visualise this, I attach first a composite of 3 positions superimposed, each layer oriented so that the legs nearly overlie. You can see a marked difference in the forward bend at the waist for the different positions of the ankle. I also attach a composite of the photos the mesuerments were made from. Jim.

As a counter to all the serious stuff on this website, here is a picture of me in a performance just before Christmas, dressed as a leopard in a dance piece. NB - I tweaked a muscle on my good side, so this is my bad side, hence the forward lean, and the tilted hips. As usual, I aim for perfection. and as always, I miss.

Very sorry to hear that. Best wishes for it, Jim.

Not a trditional pancke! Indeed - I agree! "But anyone can get there if they're prepared to put the time and effort in" - at this rate of progress, I shall probably be dead before I achieve a perfect straight line. But at least my leg flexibility isnt getting worse (and may be improving very slowly), so I'm having fun with that; unlike my spinal flexibility which is deteriorating as my vertebral discs compress with age (I am losing height at the standard rate with age). Very sorry to see about your boat by the way; that must be very distressing. All my condolences. I'm glad you are OK though. Maybe you will tell us more one day.

Thaks for that @Kit_L. However, first please can I suggest that you move the later bits of this thread to a new thread? I feel bad that I have hijacked the thread, which is now veering into a separate topic, and I dont want to discourage the original poster from continuing her own very interesting postings of her journey. Thanks. A few things about doing a full straddle. Pic 1 is a diagram of someone attempting to do a knees-forward straddle with the torso horizontal to the floor, but is not quite there yet (as I'm not - at very best, my pelvis is 3-4 cm away - as I know from my straddle machine). The oval is the pelvis seen from behind, and the two lines are the legs. If this person is determined to touch down, and relaxes ito it, the knees will be bent sideways. This is what I think is happening to me sometimes - I sometimes feel the stretch rather higher in the side of the knees than the attachments of the gracilis and semitendinosus. Actually, I'm not attempting to do a full knees-forward straddle, but the knees are rotated partially up, so there will still be a sideways component. Not good. I allow the feet to come slightly forward to partially accommodate. The real solution is to hold tension in the muscles and not come down until I'm ready (which will take forever at my current rate of progress). As for the way into the pancake, I attach a photo which shows a mix of the two ways you suggest (it was taken in the same session, a couple of stretches after the previous photo). The feet have come further away from the wall (there is less weight on them, which has allowed them to move), and are rotated forward a bit, but not completely, as are the knees. Also, the diagram got me thinking about the exact geometry. The distance of the centre of rotation of the ball joint of the femur from the front of the pelvis and the base of the sitting bones, the length of the head of the femur, the angle that the femur makes with the lower leg all affect what will be pressing on the floor in a perfect straddle. I tried looking at anatomical diagrams, but I've no idea if they are drawn accurately enough, and there will also be individual variation. So I gave up. But its an interesting point to consider. Anyway, the take-home message for me, is to concentrate more on going into it from standing, as you suggest. It the moment, I lean forward to take a controllable amount of weight on my hands. And thanks for your compliment on the position - it is all thanks to your teaching! Jim.

Thats OK - I saw the reply, and didnt get round to replying till now. I can still mostly remember what you said. I will follow what you say as much as I can. I dont have an apprehension reflex going down, because I've been doing it for decades and never had a muscle contract excessively and protectively while doing it, so my body knows it is safe. When I go down by the way, I have by butt against a wall so it doesnt go backwards, and a rubber mat in front of my feel, to discorage them from going forwards - but it does allow them to go forward a bit. From what you say, I could be doing much more strengthening on the way down, rather than just trying to get down as easily as possible. Having said that (and maybe I'm being greedy in what I am attempting) if it's a good session I'm flat on the floor, and my feet are only slightly forward of my hips. However there is still a strong sideways force on the inner side of the knees (which are touching the floor). This is because my thighs wont so easily go in a dead straight line with my rotated pelvis, so my knees are taking some of my weight and forcing my thighs apart. Photo from a few days ago attached. But if you could summarise a few salient points that you think I've missed, I'd appreciate it, as there's nothing like reading the real thing. Many thanks, Jim.

Moderator Edit: Thread split from Procrastination, Consistency & Motivation. See original thread for earlier discussion referenced below. @Kit_L Kit - can i take you upon your comment "If you develop strength at end ROM, I think the risk to the ligaments @Jim Pickles talks about is minimal" If you are going to stretch, you have to let the muscles relax (unless the force is so strong that the muscles are forced to undergo an eccentric contraction - but I cant think that would be possible in this case). So when I do a straddle, going down from above, I support my weight with my leg muscles and lean forward to take some weight on my hands and keep balance, but at the last moment, in order to touch down, I have to relax the muscles. Hence the danger to the inner ligaments of the knee. How can this be avoided? Sorry to hijack this thread. Thanks, Jim.

"front, side split and pancake, as well as improve my back flexibility" I presume you have seen the videos that Kit has, many now available for free (there are lots on Youtube). I thought the Mastery seires was now available for free but I see that it is still paid-for - but this has the best series of graded exercises for your goals (and for other goals too). You really need to do a wide range of exercises, not just the ones that are most directly targeting what is needed for your goals. This is because there are lots of other little structures (muscles, fascia, ligaments, etc) involved in every movement and you need to explore those to get optimal flexibility for your main goals. It is also more motivating to try lots of different exercises. For those goals, you should certainly give prominence to (among all the other exercises and the variants) hamstring stretches, hip flexor stretches, quad stretches, tailor pose, pancake (preparation), spinal rotation (loosens up the spine), passive backbending over support, cobra, wheel. As you are doing. For me, I started stretching in my 40s from a very tight start. Now front splits are routine without a warm-up, I've never QUITE achieved a straight-line straddle (a few cm out on a good day), backbends have always been good, pancake now OK. Front splits, straddle and pancake took about 10 years. Just letting you know. I'm coming up to 80 and do all those stretches (and final positions) every couple of days. While nothing can beat Kit and Oliva's Mastery Series, you can also see for free parts of the routines I use in my own teaching for legs - go to my webpage www.jimpflex.com.au, go to Class Videos (https://www.jimpflex.com.au/classvideos.html) and look for Legs 1 and Legs 2. These are follow-along videos which will give you my routines for front splits preparation, straddle preparation, and pancake preparation. They are intended for students with the degree of flexibility of those in my own class, so mostly the videos dont show final completed final poses (splits etc). However they can be easily extended. Most of the exercises are taken from the ST program. Jim.