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8k race 38.14 my legs are sore now

'Experts just do the basics better', is the tagline a friend of mine uses for his business. This is accurate. The deepest state of relaxation is samadhi—as is serenity. At some point, these discriminations drop away and there is only the experience. This is what I have been pointing to—go straight through. In response to questions like, "what's the difference between the first and third jhãnas?", the only response I ever gave on meditation workshops around the world was, "relax more". Questions show that the questioner is fixed in the conceptual realm. The experiential realm is where you want to be. It sounds radical, but is simple. On workshops when I have made this claim, a retreatant will say, "it can't be that simple!". It is. Humans have countless reasons for making this process complicated. Going directly to the experience bypasses all the distinctions humans make. As Yoda said, "no try, only do". Cut through.

Thank you for your suggestions. I'll remember to incorporate those sessions in which breath counting is temporarily left behind. I look forward to exploring deeper states of relaxation and attending to that most central of all issues, what is happening now.

Do try the Govinda Valley recordings, and see if they are useful (useful being assessed by the insights that are produced, or not produced). An abbot friend of mine said to me once that breath counting was his sole practice for 14 years – that is a useful perspective, I believe. My main reason for suggesting that the breathing (and its corollary practice breath counting) be continued for quite a while is that the insights that arise are (in one sense) independent from the practice – they literally arise from the internal stillness that this first practice creates. As soon as you start thinking about any of what you've outlined above, you've moved from the experiential world into the conceptual world – the world of ideas, names, qualities, etc. Thinking about these things will not change your relationship to them in my experience. The experiential world is the world of ephemera (the sensations of what we call breathing are only experienced in those instants) and attending to them as they happen—this requires concentration. I think it was Aitken Roshi who said, "the entry of grace is an accident; practice makes you accident prone". I have an additional reason for recommending the first satipatthana, too: the majority of Western students have never directly experienced deep relaxation. In my experience, learning and embodying the state of deep relaxation leads directly to the experience of serenity. This state is, in my view, the pre-requisite for everything else you talk about. Last thought on breath counting: even if this is your practice, occasionally (every third session?) do absolutely nothing at all, apart from connecting the the direct experience of the movements we label "breathing" and ask yourself, "what's happening now?"

Ah yes, of course. My understanding is that the four satipatthanas point to additional objects of meditation to be contemplated alongside the awareness of the breath during meditation. Namely, First - the body, its feelings, and how the breath conditions the body Second - the pleasant/unpleasant/neutral quality of feelings Third - the mind and the thought-stream Fourth - philosophical concepts like impermanence, emptiness, no-self, renunciation, etc. With the goal at each step being to investigate how that set of objects conditions and is conditioned by the others, and ultimately to relax and let go with respect to that set of objects. Yesterday I looked through the thread of relaxation scripts and saw that the titles of the 2014 Govinda Valley "Touching Awakening" recordings seem to fit this scheme ('tracking breathing', 'tracking feeling', 'tracking thought', 'clear understanding'). I haven't had time yet to listen to them but I suspect the answer is right there. If so, my apologies for starting a redundant thread.

To begin this discussion, perhaps you could give a précis of what you understand the first satipatthana to be, and contrast this with the others.

Ran over 9km tonight...tempo run close to race pace.I've an 8k race on Saturday pb is 37.30 I'm trying to get under 37 minutes

Hello all, From what I can tell, much of the meditation/relaxation practice of Stretch Therapy revolves around the first satipatthana. Has anyone here obtained good results from advancing their practice to the other satipatthanas? Or does anyone know whether Kit has ever explicitly discussed the other satipatthanas in relation to the meditation/relaxation component of Stretch Therapy? I know that really all four satipatthanas are inseparable, and that my curiosity about the "further" stages is just another form of grasping, and that I could probably spend the next 50 years doing nothing but counting the breath without ever exhausting the possibilities of that practice. Still I can't help but be curious.

Rest day today,I went for a short walk and did the elephant walk for limbering which is a regular exercise for me now

It's not so much the reference points as what you feel when playing with it; this is not a precision alignment task like the advanced piriformis pose; it's moving around until you experience, 'this feels like it might be useful'. It might not be, too! Do let us know what you find.

Thanks Kit, I hope the refit goes well. I like the supraspinatus stretch you linked there too. That one works well when I do it, I think the band being in free space might be part of it too since I don't have the reference points, but the immediate pull from the band is also a novel sensation in that muscle. I'll see how the next few sessions go with the band and how it changes.

Possibly. I will need to look at that specific video again to be sure; my favourite supraspinatus stretch is to simply hold a vertical bat behind me and lean to the side, like this: https://www.youtube.com/@KitLaughlin/search?query=supraspinatus The first two show the approach; my fave is the second one, now that I know what this is supposed to feel like! More to come. I am knee deep in a boat refit at the moment, so literally working from morning till night and have very little spare time. Having said that I want to thank you for your post – it's excellent – and if I can offer any suggestions on rereading, I will

LRP. Took a little more time than anticipated to give the shoulder band drills a try. I like Olivia's sequence for warming up, especially the circles. It's still a little bit strange to me when I find that things I find 'tight' are remarkably flexible compared to how they were when I first started and the large shoulder circles make that very obvious to me. My bands are a little too heavy for Kit's banded warmup (L2), (they're 'light' resistance band loops rather than the stretchy tube) so I'll see about either rigging a light weight on a pulley and some rope or else finding some that are more in that style. That said, I feel my upper and middle back remarkably well after doing those and like the full ranges of motion there. Especially as a sort of diagnostic for find and fix problems before they're problems. Yuri's band mobility - This is the one I've been most curious to try (well) and incorporate and I've procrastinated on it for too long. That is spectacular, especially the hip away rotations hit a few spots in my back that occasionally get quite tight. I went with a lighter band than the one Kit is using in the video and will stick with it for a while until I'm used to the movements a little more, but I can also feel that it's too light to do the exercises with for the bracing. I think I'm not quite understanding the supraspinatus stretch with the arm behind the back. I'm not sure if that's that my band isn't heavy enough (possible) or that I'm keeping too much tension in the shoulder (also possible) rather than letting it stretch. I do tend to be fairly loose with that line though (it's bringing the hand up towards the spine in when my shoulder is already stretched back and out that I find harder). It could also be that my anchor point was a little too high. I will investigate in the coming sessions and aim to figure it out. The heavy band run away and internal/external rotation is spectacular, though I had to go through my door to get close to enough tension for it. I am, in a general sense, surprised at how far back I need to go for all of these band drills (might be a function of band that are too light). I'm going to build out a little magnetic cross brace to hold the bands and let me adjust the height up and down quicker and also keep the anchor point for the band a little further back as a consequence. My shoulders feel wonderfully worked and loosened up though. But I also know it'll be a few sessions before my form settles in and they become known entities (just like any new stretch). Long stick rotator cuff - I used my 'rod of correction' for this since it's just a long dowel. I'm tighter in external rotations for sure. Some C&R that moved me deeper into a line, some that was deep enough just to strengthen the position a little more. I often use this dowel to stretch the chest (both arms holding it overhead and letting it fall back behind me with arms straight). I often hold it directly behind my shoulders and then press it straight back horizontally and this is the first session I've been able to straighten both my arms in that one . Judging from the number of positions that felt new (or more accurately unused to any resistance in those positions) from this session it feels like I'm waking some muscles up in ways they aren't entirely used to. 5x20s on 10s off reverse planks, bar hang to finish.

Yes, definitely. Any prop you need is legitimate, I feel. And, this might not be obvious, but in fact some people (simply because of their proportion) cannot get the centre of gravity far enough forward even with very flexible ankles (long legs, especially lower legs, and short trunks). The key muscle you didn't mention is glutes; these are what gets you out of the bottom position. WRT the video, if you can do pistol squats with a small lift under your heel, then do it that way – you don't need to do the deck squats which is what the video above begins with.

@Kit_L would you recommend continuing using single leg squat / pistol squat progressions (YouTube video below) if it has been determined that the primary "restriction" if you will, is ankle flexibility/mobility? I'm still slowly eliminating pain in my right, torn hamstring tendon (they had initially anticipated 3 months for full recover yet it's been 9 months and still not quite there) and been (re)experimenting with single leg squats as one of the ways to restore strength in my legs. And recently, a friend of mine (who happens to be a PT) did an impromptu session with me and then did a very quick assessment of my pistol squat, and diagnostically placed a very short (in height) block under my heel and voila, was able to do a pistol squat; she then stated that I have sufficient strength in quads, hamstrings etc. Now, I recognize that many of us lack the ankle flexibility/mobility and wondering if you would recommend isolated exercises to increase (I believe) dorsiflexion or if you recommend following the progressions laid out in your video.

Sounds perfect!

It's been a busy month with enough general effort beyond the usual that I haven't been as consistent as I'd like with calisthenics, stretch sessions, LRP, or posting. I have been consistent with a morning session of martial arts style Ba Duan Jin (hold the end positions for 5 breaths each and mostly don't repeat movements) which takes me about 30 minutes to get through. It's a little limbering, a little meditation, a little stretching, and a little strength work. Both in that and outside of it, I've been playing with very slow movements to find and smooth the kind of stuttering motion that happens in those circumstances. That's a fascinating thing to pay attention to and work with. I'm sticking with the tendon training primarily (was aiming for 3 days a week, usually ended up closer to every 3 days). Slow eccentrics (4s, quick concentric, 1-2s pauses on either end to avoid momentum and work maximum voluntary contraction in the position) and isometrics. I don't especially enjoy doing the slow eccentrics, but I'm responding well to it (about 10-12s per rep so a set ends up being 2-3 minute of work 3 sets about 1 minute apart). I'm also noticing a lot more voluntary control over some of the muscles in my shoulders and upper back. Pushups, rows, squats (and reverse lunges). Isometrics tend to be gymnastics planks, hollow body holds, arch body holds, bar hangs/lock offs, and scapular depressions to train the hardest part of the L-sits for me. I've been doing some single leg wobble board training again for calves and added in some of the hip limbering leg lifts (bent knee up, out, down and the other way, etc) to challenge my balance more, mostly eyes closed. The usual wrist/hand work with various bands, mostly using the blue expand your hands band for the finger extensors now (still 30 reps, that thing is wretchedly heavy compared to the yellow one but slowly getting easier I can imagine it'll take me 12+ months with it before I have a chance of using the red one). I stabilized my pullup bar against horizontal force by stacking my kettlebells on a board across it's back legs today. 136kg 0.5m away from the uprights, so I don't think it's going anywhere. I'll likely give the shoulder band sequences another try in the next few days. LRP.

They recommended monitoring it and not overdoing any stretching (this is what triggered it). Smaller mouthfuls and eat on the bad side to lessen certain forces on the jaw joint on the bad side. Maybe go to an osteopath for neck strengthening.

I have never heard of latissimus dorsi cramping while under stretch—in my experience, and the experience of the thousands of students we have worked with over the years, hanging always relieves a cramp—this is fundamental to how the body works. Contractions, whether part of something else, or the first part of the pull of a chin up, can cause the muscles to cramp, but letting the body relax in that position and letting the body's weight stretch the same muscles and always relieves the cramp. Cramping is an involuntary contraction of the majority of the muscle fibres of a muscle involved, and only lengthening that muscle can relieve a cramp. It may be that the sensation you're feeling in your body are not a cramp. I'm going to outline the exercise I am recommending once more. Get a good grip of the bar, with your feet still on the ground, and then slowly bend your knees so more and more of your weight comes on your arms and hands gently, so you can adjust to the sensation. Before the full weight of your body comes on (so while your feet are still lightly touching the ground), and with your elbows pressed completely straight using your triceps, gently pull up just an inch or two – hold that for a few seconds then take a breath in and let your body's weight stretch your lats so your shoulders come up closer to your ears. Repeat this three or four times, concentrating on letting yourself go down lower after each small contraction. The elbows must stay straight during this to ensure that only latissimus dorsi works in the small pulling part. That is all I would do for the first week or so. And then, as a separate action on another occasion, after you do the small contraction, and let yourself hang down experiencing your full body's weight, that's when you think about pressing the bar up away from you. This activates trapezius – and the activation of trapezius in this position inhibits latissimus dorsi. Inhibit here means that the nervous system sends a message to latissimus dorsi to relax so that trapezius can activate – this happens at the same time. This is called the reciprocal inhibition reflex – you can look it up. Trapezius elevates the shoulder girdle; latissimus dorsi depresses it; they do the opposite movements. All muscles in the body are paired in this way except the tongue. When one of the pair activates, the other is inhibited and we have used this fact of how the body is organised as a very powerful method of stretching – it is one of the three reflexes we work with all the time. And when you do make the time to do the hanging side bend, I think you will find out just how tight your latissimus dorsi are—and loosening these will have a major beneficial effect on your swing. Both exercises are essential for you. Stop doing the piano stool stretch for now; Olivia will be chiming in with a gentler suggestion.

Hi Kit- Have attempted dead hangs before (both with feet touching and without) but stopped because of latissimus dorsi cramping. Although I have never attempted performing a dead hang (latissimus contraction) then tried to engage my trapezius (trapezius contraction) with an upward pushing movement (. Thank you for the input. I did not consider the role that the trapezius m plays in latissimus dorsi function. Also haven't yet attempted the hanging side bend variations for trunk pain exercise. Yes, so true this is a movement pattern I developed over a number of years and will take time to change my established movement pattern. Thanks again. Patrick

And have you started the hanging practice yet? This too stretches latissimus dorsi. Combined with the exercise linked to immediately above, the piano stool exercises will be able to be done, in time.

Do please report back with what the dentist suggests. And now your symptoms are suggesting Thoracic Outlet Compression Syndrome (TOCS). Try this: https://stretchtherapy.net/shoulder-pull-down/ If that is too intense, there's a floor version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8ko2hjOo_4& These two have helped many people.

If anything it's got worse so I'm going to a dentist I also something get tingles in my lower lip now

Hi Kit-Will do and thank you. Patrick

Most definitely. Running definitely made me less flexible (and why I started what I do now!). Keep going.